Estonia

Parapsykologia, PSI, rajatieto, kummitukset, salaliitot.

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matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

damfin kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 12:12 pm
e18 kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 12:06 pm Taisi olla niin että se sukelluksen vaarallisuus otettiin peittelijänä toimivan ruotsin puolesta korttina pöytään ettei sinne voi mennä.

Sinne menneet sukeltajat ei ole kuitenkaan nähneet hylyllä operointia liian vaarallisena.
Moniko noista sukeltajista operoi laivan sisällä?
Toisaalta harvoinhan nuo sukeltajat mitään riskiä itse missään tunnistavat, kaikki on vaan jännittävää ja kivaa, siksi kai varsinkin näitä suomalaisia sukeltajia kaiken maailman luoliin niin usein kuoleekin.
Hyvä kysymys esimerkiksi olisi damfinille, että onko hän edes katsonut uutta dokumenttia. Selkeästi ei ole kun ei ole nähnyt Rockwaterin sukeltajien haastatteluja. Tai katsonut muutama sivu sitten postaamaani linkkiä raporttiin, jossa näkyy Rockwaterin sukeltajien käyneen käytännössä joka puolella laivan sisällä. Ihan päästään keksii ison osan näistä jutuista, joita levittelee. Varoituksen sanana.

Vaikka ruotsi ei taipuisi, niin Rockwaterin sukeltajat puhuvat englantia tässä jaksossa ja ihan selvästi selittävät, että a) helppo nakki sukellukseksi, johon ovat tottunee; b) ruumiit olisi saanut erittäin helposti ylös; c) oli selkeästi poliittinen päätös jättää ruumiit alas merenpohjaan.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/anlAVRYD3i6k/

Tiedättekö muuten, miksi ruumiit oli pakko jättää sinne? Ilman sitä ei olisi saatu hautarauhaa! Ja ilman hautarauhaa ei olisi saatu salattua mitä alukselle oikeasti tapahtui, sillä tähän päivään asti hautarauha estää sen allekirjoittaneiden maiden kansalaisille tuon hylyn tutkimisen tai edes sen läheisyydessä sukeltamisen ja siihen suuntaan katsomisen.
XiphiasGladius
Vähänniinkuharrastaja
Viestit: 96
Liittynyt: Su Elo 25, 2019 5:57 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja XiphiasGladius »

matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 4:53 pm
XiphiasGladius kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 8:28 am
reinoo kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 8:22 am

Rockwater olis nostanu ylös helppo homma. ruotsi se päätti yksin ettei nosteta.
Smit Tak, joka omistaa koko Rockwaterin kieltäytyi hyvin yksiselitteisesti, vaara työntekijöille on liian suuri.
Ja tässä vielä tuo viestiketju, jossa tätä väärää tietoa on leivottu XiphiasGladiuksen puolesta.
Tarkistin
Tosiaan, Hlliburton osti Rockwaterin Smitiltä jo 92
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1992/10/09 ... 718603200/
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

XiphiasGladius kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 5:26 pm
matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 4:53 pm
XiphiasGladius kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 8:28 am

Smit Tak, joka omistaa koko Rockwaterin kieltäytyi hyvin yksiselitteisesti, vaara työntekijöille on liian suuri.
Ja tässä vielä tuo viestiketju, jossa tätä väärää tietoa on leivottu XiphiasGladiuksen puolesta.
Tarkistin
Tosiaan, Hlliburton osti Rockwaterin Smitiltä jo 92
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1992/10/09 ... 718603200/
Anteeksi kova kielenkäyttöni, mutta tässä ketjussa arvon tutkijat tutkivat Euroopan historian suurinta meriturmaa, johon liittyy rikollista toimintaa ainakin kolmen valtion, merenkäyntiviranomaisten ja onnettumuustutkintakeskusten toimesta. Tämä on niin vakava asia, että kannustaisin jokaista tähän lankaan postaavaa tarkistamaan väitteensä ja tarjoamaan lähteet kaikille väitteilleen, jotka selkeästi lähteitä tarvitsevat. Näin asiassa päästään katsokaas etiäpäin, ei taaksepäin takaisin siihen kasaan visiiri irtosi önnönnöö -paskaa, jota on kuunneltu jo 26 vuotta.
Viimeksi muokannut matalanveenmanaatti, Su Loka 11, 2020 5:39 pm. Yhteensä muokattu 3 kertaa.
reinoo
Armas Tammelin
Viestit: 87
Liittynyt: Ma Heinä 22, 2019 1:21 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja reinoo »

Silakkaliikkeen trollit löytäny tännekkin näköjään.
ammattiamatööri
Jack Bauer
Viestit: 902
Liittynyt: Ma Syys 14, 2020 5:03 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja ammattiamatööri »

matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 5:35 pm Anteeksi kova kielenkäyttöni, mutta tässä ketjussa arvon tutkijat tutkivat Euroopan historian suurinta meriturmaa, johon liittyy rikollista toimintaa ainakin kolmen valtion, merenkäyntiviranomaisten ja onnettumuustutkintakeskusten toimesta. Tämä on niin vakava asia, että kannustaisin jokaista tähän lankaan postaavaa tarkistamaan väitteensä ja tarjoamaan lähteet kaikille väitteilleen, jotka selkeästi lähteitä tarvitsevat. Näin asiassa päästään katsokaas etiäpäin, ei taaksepäin takaisin siihen kasaan visiiri irtosi önnönnöö -paskaa, jota on kuunneltu jo 26 vuotta.
Niin mielestäni tässä pitää saattaa salailijat vastuuseen. Tai ainakin tonkia se syypäävaltio tähän koko soppaan. Ei mikään ihme, että Ruotsissa on varmaan metrin korkuinen pino dokumentteja on salattu 70 vuodeksi. Aikaa nyt on kulunut kuiteskin se jo melkein 30 vuotta niin jostain pitäisi saada niin karmea kansainvälinen paine suunnattua, että valtio (tuo tuossa vieressä) jo myöntäisi olevansa ainakin osasyyllinen turmaan ja ei muuta kuin lompakkoa auki vaan ja omaisille kunnon korvaukset. Nythän tämän kaiken pelleilyn taustalla tuntuu olevan se, että mikään taho ei ole vastuussa Estonian uppoamisesta. Ei laivavalmistaja, ei yksikään valtio eikä edes mikään terroristiryhmä. Eikä myöskään mikään mafia.

Siksi se keulavisiiriteoria ja tuhannen epäonnisen sattuman summa eli sama kuin lotossa saisi 6+1 oikein oli päätetty samalla hetkellä kun Estonia makasi meren pohjassa jotta kenenkään ei tarvitse vastuuta kantaa.
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

CCC kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 1:56 pm Täällähän Virkkarit (666) valehtelee ihan sumeilematta, aiemmin ketjussa oli selkeä Supo etc trolll, taitaa olla nytkin. Trollit a'la otkes ei kykene niin selkeään touhuun, että osaisi tutkia isoja juttuja saati trollata? . :mrgreen:
Sellaiset terveiset ammattitrolleille ja valvoville silmille, että voitte vapaasti ottaa yhteyttä. Konsultoin mielelläni viestintätarpeitanne, niitä teillä selkeästi on joka sormelle niin sanotusti tällä hetkellä.

Ilmaisena neuvona voin sanoa, että tämä asia tulee kyllä selviämään ja siitä tullaan tekemään riippumatonta journalismia ympäri maailman, vielä paljon enemmän kuin on jo tehty. Teillä on nyt vielä mahdollisuus astua vastuidenne tasolle ja myöntää kunniallisesti virheenne tämän asian suhteen. Voitte ikään kuin kantaa kontollanne sitä julkista keskustelua, jonka ihmiset tarvitsevat tästä kollektiivisesta ja monille vielä henkilökohtaisesta traumasta parantuakseen. Tämä on ehdottomasti mahdollisuus, ei uhka.
Avatar
MissMallard
Axel Foley
Viestit: 2469
Liittynyt: Ke Syys 16, 2015 4:24 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja MissMallard »

Ei se venäläinen sukellusvene ehkä nyt niin provokatiivisesti lähestynyt Viking Mariellaa. Se tuosta jutusta tuli ilmi että sukellusveneillä on usein saattoalus.
Mutta jos Estonian turmaan liittyisi sukellusveneen saattoalus niin se lienee tutkassa havaittu ja jonkun silmään osunut. Toki jostain valoistahan siellä on ollut mainintaa.

Venäläinen sukellusvene ajoi kohti Viking Mariellaa - katso video https://www.is.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000000800700.html
xflr6
Alokas
Viestit: 9
Liittynyt: Su Loka 04, 2020 10:45 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja xflr6 »

MissMallard kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 6:31 pm Ei se venäläinen sukellusvene ehkä nyt niin provokatiivisesti lähestynyt Viking Mariellaa. Se tuosta jutusta tuli ilmi että sukellusveneillä on usein saattoalus.
Mutta jos Estonian turmaan liittyisi sukellusveneen saattoalus niin se lienee tutkassa havaittu ja jonkun silmään osunut. Toki jostain valoistahan siellä on ollut mainintaa.

Venäläinen sukellusvene ajoi kohti Viking Mariellaa - katso video https://www.is.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000000800700.html
Ja mitähän joku 20v myöhemmin kirkkaassa valossa ajava sukellusvene liittyy Estoniaan?

Tuntuu että täällä nyt mennään aika puhtaasti pöpelikköön ja kauhistellaan aivan asiaankuulomattomilla faktoilla tai keksitään päästä fiktiivisiä mälläyskertomuksia kuinka kuolla Itämerellä.

Haluaisin itse kernaasti keskustella Estonian upottamisen motiiveista, todella hedelmällistä pohdintaa ollut täällä aikaisemmin
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

Noniin elikkäs, nyt kun on trollit saatu häädettyä helvettiin niin voidaan jatkaa näin aikuisten kesken tätä pohdintaa. Avasin sihisevän ja menin tässä googlailemaan, että mitäs on kuluneen tunnin aikana julkaistu internetissä MS Estoniasta. Sattumalta joku oli päivittänyt Wikispooksin ja sieltä löysin tällaisen oikein makoisan linkin. Lukekaapas, arvon tutkitjat, tätä.
17/05/1996
Article

(May 17, 1996) The ferry Estonia sank on 28 September 1994 between Tallinn, Estonia, and Stockholm, Sweden. In the disaster, 852 passengers and crew members lost their lives. Seven hundred bodies still remain in the boat. Beginning in mid-April 1996, a concrete gravestone (another kind of sarcophagus) has been laid over the ship.

(452.4471) WISE-Amsterdam - Reporter Maarten Rabaey from the Belgian newspaper De Morgen comes up with an interesting story on the real cause of the sinking of the ferry. He narrates the story of Werner Hummel, an expert of the company which constructed the Estonia, Meyer-Werft. According to Hummel, the encapsulation of the boat with concrete has started way too soon. His recent findings are very intriguing: during the fatal journey, the bowdoors of the Estonia had been opened to throw two lorries with contraband cargo, which included radioactive material, overboard.

It has been established that the Estonia sank after a bowdoor broke off, but how this happened exactly is unclear until today. Swedish experts stated that "a giant wave" was the culprit. German experts originally conformed with this theory. Until December last year. Hummel: "Then we set eyes upon the translation of the so-called Felix Report. This report was named after Felix Dzerdzinski - the founder of the KGB (and its forerunners NKVD and Cheka), the former secret service of the Soviet Union. Former members of this organization revealed their findings about organized crime in the Baltic states in an 85-page report commissioned by the Russian government. The report already dates from March last year and was passed on to the local authorities, and then translated. Two pages of it are on the Estonia disaster. This theory was so fantastic that we didn't believe it in the beginning."

According to the report, the Estonia was a crucial link in an enormous smuggling operation from the Baltic states to Western Europe. On the night of the disaster, the ferry had contraband cargo on board, including a huge amount of heroin and forty metric tonnes (40,000 kg) of radioactive cobalt and some osmium.

The captain of the Estonia, Arvo Andresson, reportedly was aware of the smuggling but did not know exactly what was on board. He was reportedly told during the journey by a certain "Yuri" - named in the report as the contact person of the smugglers in Tallinn - that the Swedish Customs had been tipped. (The Swedish deny this.) "Yuri" threatened the captain with death and ordered him to throw the contraband cargo overboard. The cargo was on two lorries; thus, there was only one way to get rid of it: through the opened bowdoor.

According to the report, there was a key witness - someone named Igor Kristapowich - who had recorded the incriminating telephone call of Yuri to the captain. After the disaster, Kristapowich was found murdered in Talinn. He was murdered, says the report, because of this knowledge and his involvement in the smuggling. Not a single trace of the sound recording has ever been found. "Therefore nobody believed in this theory," expert Hummel says. Until February.

"We got a letter from an Estonian officer who claimed he knew much more 'about the real cause'," Hummel says. "I visited him in Helsinki. He had gone after the Felix Report on his own and he came up with a coherent story." According to the officer some members of the staff of the Estonian army were involved in the smuggling operation on the Estonia, among them a certain General Einseln. Einseln, a former US officer who had returned to his native land, Estonia, had to resign last year after being accused of arms smuggling.

Hummel compared the contraband cargo theory with statements right after the accident from eyewitnesses. He found astonishing congruences. Several witnesses heard sounds of the opening of the bowdoors and engines just before the accident. The captain was definitely not on the bridge during the accident; his voice was not on the Mayday recordings. He could very well have been at the fore coordinating the operation. A Latvian policeman on board stated immediately after he was rescued that he saw the bowdoors move just before the accident.

According to Hummel, the hasty burial of the ferry is very unusual. Neither the company which constructed the Estonia, nor the relatives nor the Swedish parliament wanted this. But covering a ship with concrete is of course an ideal way to prevent radioactivity from leaking. Hummel claims that the plausibility of the contraband cargo theory has increased due to information received from unnamed sources in St. Petersburg and Tallinn.

Source: De Morgen (Belgium), 27 April 1996

https://www.wiseinternational.org/nucle ... ue-n-cargo
Noniin, ja sitten näihin todistusaineistoihin. Lukaiskaapas sivulta 87 uudestaan tuo meieäläisen turbo-ocd pläjäys Meyer Werftin raportin pohjalta kaivetuista selvinneiden kertomuksista, jotka kuulivat pauketta. Vähintään 17 sitä kuuli. Ja keulaviisirin avaamiseen tosiaan tarvittiin sitä lekaa, tästä löytyy myös todistusaineistona lausunto aiheesta tuolta päin tätä ketjua:

https://murha.info/rikosfoorumi/viewtop ... 1#p1078841

Elikkäs. Näkisin tämän nyt sellaisena hommana, että joku on koittanut joko a) ryöstää lastin tai sitten b) tarkoituksella heittää sen mereen. Tämä tarkoittaa sitä, että joko a) sukellusvene on vahingossa törmännyt kylkeen kun ryöstön tiimellyksessä laiva lähtenyt reitiltään tai muuten on noustu pintaan esimerkiksi katsomaan, että mitäs helvettiä siellä tapahtuu ja sitten vahingossa osunut; tai b) koska keulaviisiri on ollut niin sysipaska, sitä ei ole saatu auki, jonka takia sukellusveneessä on tehty päätös että parempi upottaa koko paska.

Tätä salakuljetustahan on puuhanneet, kuten nyt tiedetään, virolaiset yhdessä amerikkalaisen kenraalin kanssa sekä ruotsalaiset kera MI6:n, nämä suhteet tässä voi toki olla ties kuinka kiemuraiset. Kuka siis halusi pölliä lastin? Vai oliko lastin dumppaaminen mereen vain joku "logistinen pikkujuttu", joka meni aivan vitullisella tavalla väärin? Eihän tollaista kukaan täysjärkinen tohtisi edes yrittää.

Virossa on ollu aika likasta tämä peli. Tsekatkaa tuo Aleksander Einseln: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Einseln

Lueskelin eilen Viron valtion teettämän tutkimuksen loppuraporttia, jossa on hutkittu näiden salakuljetushommien äärellä vuonna 2005. Pisti silmään, että siellä on ollut pöydässä mukana vielä myös Herman Simm, joka kolme vuotta myöhemmin tuomittiin Venäjälle vakoilusta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Simm

En oo vielä kattonut tätä, mutta löytyypä äijästä oikein dokumenttielokuvakin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwso2knThRI

Edit: alkoi käydä niin kovaa linkkilinko että unohtui tämä Viron salakuljetushommien tutkimuksen loppurapsa: https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/pd ... sure39.pdf

Löytyy kiinnostavimmat ja painavimmat panokset muuten täältä, kiitos jälleen Meyer Werft: https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/enclosures.html
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

Lähdin metsästämään tuota mainittua Felix raporttia muinaisesta internetistä, ja sattumalta löytyi tässä matkalla tällainen aikamoinen Der Spiegelin artikkeli, julkaistu jouluaaton aattona 1999.

Tässä linkki saksaa taitaville, muuten kopioituna tähän englanniksi käännettynä: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/estonia ... 57520.html
Estonia disaster

In the Bermuda Triangle of the Baltic Sea

Eight crew members of the sunken "Estonia", initially reported as survivors, have disappeared. Your loved ones believe they are alive. In the next few weeks the investigation commission will present its final report. From Anuschka Roshani

December 23, 1999, 9:28 am

It was a wonderful party, there was champagne, there were small bites, and there was Sirje Piht's famous plum cake. Many of her husband's friends had come to toast and even some of his old colleagues from the "Estline" shipping company. They laughed and told each other nice little stories and had a lot of fun together, even without the birthday girl. Only one friend was unsure whether it was okay to have fun without Avo and hesitantly suggested celebrating his birthday quietly. But everyone else was in the best party mood, which was strange at a birthday party for a "dead person". It can only have been because, says Sirje Piht, his wife, that everyone hoped that Avo would also have his 42nd today, if not here in Tallinn, then somewhere.

However, they were unable to say what this somewhere looks like. A secret place whose existence none of them doubted, but neither could anyone describe it. It was also unclear what Avo looks like today, as a 42-year-old; she remembered him as a man who always looked laced up, wore a tie and a noncommittal grin. But this picture of him that they had in their minds was more than two years old after all.

Exactly 794 days ago that November evening that the "Estonia" sank with 852 people on board. Only 137 had been rescued, had been lucky enough to reach the seventh deck of the ferry, which was sinking in seconds, and one of the lifeboats in time, and had had the strength to endure for hours in the freezing Baltic Sea.

Those who held out were young or strong or level-headed despite the panic that had broken out when the ship suddenly listed. Or they must have been through such an emergency many times and be familiar with every corner of this eight-deck-high sea giant. Who would have a better chance in such a situation than Avo Piht, experienced captain of the "Estonia"?

So it was not surprising that among the 137 rescued 41 were crew members. Witnesses report that Avo Piht also made it onto the ship's deck. There he distributed life jackets to the passengers and tried to bring some order into the panic chaos. And although everyone had enough to do with themselves that night, several survivors can remember that Piht was the last to jump onto a life raft.

Around 200 kilometers from the scene of the accident, in Tallinn, Estonia, his wife Sirje Piht's phone rings at half past five that morning. A friend is on the line and asks: "Is your husband at home?"

"No, it isn't," she says.

"Turn on the radio. I'll call you right back," says the friend.

It was with this vague warning that the misfortune began for Sirje Piht. Then she heard on the radio that the "Estonia" had sunk on her voyage from Tallinn to Stockholm. She stood trembling in front of the device and waited to find out what had happened to her husband Avo.

She had to wait six hours before his name finally came up. At half past eleven, Radio Kuku broadcast an official announcement from the Estline ferry terminal: Among those rescued was Captain Avo Piht, reported the spokesman for the Estonian Ministry of Transport. Then the phone rang again before Sirje Piht could really understand the redeeming message. One by one they congratulated her on the news of Avo's rescue. And her son came home immediately because he too had heard it on the radio news, and there the Pihts sat and couldn't believe their luck any more than they could believe their misfortune a few hours before.

Avo Piht was also listed as a survivor on the first official lists published by Estonian and Finnish television on September 28: a simple "ok" behind his name was the proof. As if that weren't enough - although the hospitals, the police and the embassies checked every list carefully before they released it - more and more signs of life from Avo appeared later, as suddenly and randomly as corks with them with a full plop to the surface of the water.

On the same day, at 2:30 p.m., called Captain Erich Moik, a long-time friend of the family, who had studied with Piht at the Naval Academy in Leningrad. He was just in Rostock to take over the "Mare Balticum" and had followed the television news in the hotel with his crew. They recognized their former colleague immediately: he and other castaways had been taken from the Finnish island of Utö to the emergency room at the Turku University Hospital; he was standing in front of an ambulance.

Another witness from Stockholm, Heinrich Tann, who knew Piht from his regular trips on the "Estonia" and was hoping for a message from his wife, later described the TV picture in an affidavit, just like Moik's crew: How battered Piht had looked , mentally at the end. Tann could not specify in which station the images were to be seen, research remained without result. Another witness had even seen Piht in person: In a radio interview immediately after the accident, the paramedic of a rescue helicopter reported that he had just been able to speak to the second captain of the "Estonia". The incumbent Estonian Prime Minister Mart Laar himself then tried in Turku to get initial information from Piht on the course of the disaster.

After the suffocating fear of the first few hours, Sirje Piht became more certain that Avo had got away with his life. Little by little she was able to collect the information in Tallinn, and with each new one the dead became more alive.

But what looks like a happy ending is the beginning of an infinite misfortune. Three days after the catastrophe, the official bodies that had made Piht's rescue public take back their good news: It must be a misunderstanding. On the lists that have now been published, Piht appears neither as saved nor as dead; now he is listed as missing. All old lists are treated as secret by the police.

Sirje Piht feels as if she is being torn into a gullet until she realizes that she is not alone; seven other crew members of the "Estonia" share Piht's fate of not being dead and not alive: Also the chief engineer Lembit Leiger, the ship's doctor Wiktor Bogdanow, the dancers Hannely and Hanka-Hannika Veide, the manager of the duty free shop Tiina Müür, the 4. Engineer Agur Targama and 4th officer Kaimar Kikas are first reported as survivors and are then considered missing.

Their families suddenly have to get used to the madness that a third impossible possibility becomes possible: From now on the eight wander as undead through their thoughts. In order to keep them in the world of the living, their rooms at home remain exactly as they were left by them on September 27, 1994. In order to escape the doubt and because they realize that no official help is to be expected, they begin to do their own research. They try to track down the people who told them on the phone that their loved ones are alive. They make their way to Stockholm, search the hospitals and rescue stations in order to be able to put the individual tracks together to form a track.

You are writing an open letter to the Swedish Prime Minister Göran Persson asking for his support. Sometimes they are told that the woman who distributed the good and bad news to the relatives at the information desk at the Swedish Huddinge Hospital does not exist in their clinic; then the sister finally stands in front of them because they won't let up. But because of the utter confusion, she can no longer remember individual cases.

Other agencies do not even bother: Illu Erma, the wife of the ship's doctor Viktor Bogdanov, hears the strange sentence from a Finnish police officer: The police should also have their secrets. And witnesses such as crew member Andres Vihmar, who reassured Illu Erma on the phone with the words "Viktor is with me", step back from their original statements and explain the change with their initial confusion. The Interpol search for Avo Piht goes nowhere.

At such moments, the relatives are afraid of losing their minds, when they remember the old stories from deep socialist times, stories of people who shuffled in slippers to fetch the newspaper in the morning and disappeared from one second to the next without a trace. At that time, when Estonia was not yet independent, it was said that these people were deported to Siberia - why should it be any different today, they ask. After all, Estonian democracy is not even six years old.

But even without these scary stories, the new peculiarities are enough to condense an unbearable feeling: Behind all this there must be something so monstrous and unimaginable that although they do everything to free themselves from the labyrinth, they are sometimes afraid of it to discover the whole truth.

Missing relatives tend to follow even the strangest leads and believe the most incredible stories in order not to lose hope. One rumor in particular worries the relatives of the missing, which is circulating in Tallinn just a few weeks after the fall: the Estonian mafia has a hand in it. In Russian and Estonian newspapers are circulating. Excerpts from a mysterious report called "Felix Report", which is said to have been co-authored by former KGB members. It says on page 72 that on the night of the accident, drug traffickers tried to smuggle "large quantities of heroin" and 40 tons of cobalt, hidden in two trucks, into Sweden with the "Estonia". Criminal rivals got wind of it and told Swedish customs about the matter (SPIEGEL 16/1996).

When the warning about the smugglers leaked, the Estonian mastermind of the transfer, called "Jurij" by the secret services, called the captain on duty Arvo Andresson on his mobile phone and asked him to throw the stuff overboard. Despite the suicidal risk, Andresson did not dare to defy the orders of the Mafia; he tried to open the bow hatch of the ferry and thus caused the disaster himself.

The Felix Report lists the customs officer Igor Krishtapovich as the key witness of this version. He recorded the telephone conversations between "Jurij" and the captain and therefore had to die: On October 22, 1994, around three weeks after the night of the accident, he was killed at close range on his doorstep with shots in the head. With a 7.62mm TT pistol.

What sounds like one of the usual adventurous conspiracy theories is not only like a stubborn fungus for the relatives that attacks their clean thoughts again and again. The secret report is not smiled at by German experts either.

The Hamburg captain Werner Hummel and the maritime lawyer Peter Holtappels have been researching the causes of the accident for more than two years on behalf of the German Meyer shipyard, which built the "Estonia" in 1980. Until then, the Felix Report had explained something inexplicable to them, and when Hummel found another witness who said that former high officers of the Estonian army were behind the smuggling, "suddenly a lot of things went together".

In addition, there were statements from survivors who heard "grinding and engine noises" like during maneuvering work, as well as "starting the front hydraulic pumps" and "a creaking noise" that occurs when the bow visor is opened. Customs officials in Tallinn admitted to SPIEGEL-tv employee Jutta Rabe that the ferries between the Baltic states and Western Europe have long been used as smugglers. In February 1994, almost seven months before it sank, 64 Kurdish refugees were supposed to be smuggled in a container on the car deck of the "Estonia"; only when they threatened to suffocate in the narrow box did they knock on the metal walls and were discovered.

"Complete nonsense" is what the international accident commission, which has been working with three representatives from Sweden, Estonia and Finland since the end of September 1994 to investigate the catastrophe, calls the Felix Report. "We cannot rule out smuggling," says Uno Laur, the chairman of the commission, "but we are sure that it has nothing to do with the disaster itself."

How, these experts point out, should one move trucks back and forth on a ferry? Who is crazy enough to open the bow hatch on the high seas? And why did the Stockholm police not confirm the allegedly planned raid?

The Commission intends to explain the real causes of the accident in its final report, which after several postponements has now been announced for the next few weeks. According to the Estonian captain Laur, the partial report published in April 1995 will not differ significantly: In it, Meyer-Werft is blamed for the fact that the locking systems of the "Estonia" were too weak. "That could have happened to the 'Estonia' on its maiden voyage," claims Laur. The technical director of the commission, Börje Stenström, on the other hand, distanced himself from this in a fax to the shipyard's lawyer: There it says that it cannot be said with certainty who is responsible for this defect.

The families of the eight missing persons cannot say goodbye to the Felix Report as quickly as the average commission; they hope that the German lawyer Henning Witte, who represents 1,320 members, will obtain new evidence from foreign divers. Before the last claims became statute-barred, Witte filed a lawsuit in Paris against the shipyard, the Swedish maritime authority and the French classification society Bureau Veritas in order to clarify at least some of the myriad of open questions.

Why did divers, on behalf of the Commission, examine and film every corner of the shipwreck, except the car deck? Why are important testimonies ignored, such as that of Carl Övberg, who claims to have heard the hydraulic noises? Why are investigative journalists intimidated with telephone threats, why is an Estonian reporter given a bounty in Mafia circles and then shot at him so that he has to be placed under police protection? Why should the "Estonia" get a 65 million mark coat made of concrete and gravel when the recovery of the corpses by a diving company costs 5 million? Why should the preservation of evidence already be completed? Why are the three uniformed bodies discovered on the bridge of the wreck not identified? Why?

Illu Erma is a woman who tries to find an answer to every question, even if one question raises the next, before the first answer. One who thinks everything through, even when it has already been thought through. One that suspects a deep logic even in the seemingly illogical, even if it hides from it.

But now she's been forced to live with all those question marks for so many months that she even questions what she thought was reliable up until then: herself. She feels torn between her instinct and her mind. She no longer knows who to believe; her head whispers, everything is probably a cruel mistake, her seventh sense tells her that Wiktor is alive. She feels the connection to him very strongly, she still catches herself cutting out newspaper articles that might interest "Wik".

Illu Erma believes that her husband Viktor Bogdanov is being held forcibly because he knows too much. He and the others had to go, she suspects: they are the only witnesses. All rescued crew members do not belong to the leadership of the "Estonia". And even though she has lost confidence in her own strength, she is still convinced of Viktor's strength: "If anyone can get out of there, it's only him." Before his time as a ship's doctor, until the spring of 1994, he learned as a forensic psychiatrist and head of a psychiatric department how to cope with difficult situations. And she cannot believe that the witnesses who saw her husband are wrong. "Look at his ears," she says and has to smile, "they are distinctive."

Ever since the catastrophe, her thoughts have revolved around Wik. "I only work like a machine, for the sake of my daughters," she says, and her eyes look fogged up from within. Small incidents turn into oracle-sized signs for them. It occurs to her that a month before the disaster she saw a documentary about the sinking of the "Titanic" on television, she thought: It's good that Wik is such an experienced swimmer.

Wik's behavior also seems unusual to her today: he quickly got fed up with prescribing old aunts cough syrup or green-faced passengers pills for seasickness, but resolved to stay on the "Estonia" for a year for career reasons. Then in mid-September he, who was already a very calm person, became more silent than ever; as soon as he got off the ship, he no longer spoke of his experiences there; all he said was that he wanted to quit early and go back to scientific work.

Illu Erma does not know whether her husband heard of dark business on board the "Estonia" and therefore wanted to quit. Perhaps there is something in the rumor that the Felix Report was cleverly launched by the Russians because they don't like Estonian independence. This maybe also buzzes in her head and seldom allows her to remain silent until at some point she is too weak to defend herself against envy: Sometimes she longs for deadly security, envies others for going to the cemetery and their flowers there can lay on the grave.

When she puts a candle on the dining table on New Year's Eve, in Viktor's place, her daughter forbids her: Mama, you mustn't do that, he's not dead. That was the only time she mentioned her father. When someone else did, she clutched his old sweater, screamed, and tossed things around.

For the parents of the missing twin sisters Hannely and Hanka-Hannika Veide, it is a consolation to keep talking about their daughters, to look at their photos and the videos that show them dancing. "They live," says Ulo Veide. And his wife tells of the strange phone call on September 28, 1995, at half past ten in the evening: "This is Hannely", then the connection was broken, just a noise. Such calls came twice more, each time it sounded far away. "I am absolutely certain that they are alive," says Aino Veide with a tense expression on his face. "The name Anne Veide was on one of the lists - how could those in the hospital have known about our nickname for Hannely except about herself?"

The unlucky day was Hannely's and Hanka-Hannika's very first day on board a ship, and they didn't even have a contract from the shipping company in their pockets. With their dance group "Pantera" they worked out a show program for the "Estonia". Hannely was responsible for the choreography and had specially visited the famous variety theaters in Paris and London to get inspiration. The trips on the "Estonia" were only intended to serve as a test, from there they wanted to start their real career in show business after a few months. What could happen to them, after all, they were only 24 - young enough to travel around.

They were happy to finally get started, and on the day of their departure they laughed at their mother's worried expression, who was frightened by the storm warning, tried on their new costumes and slipped on the glittering flags that they used for the James Brown number "I feel good "and in the frilly My Fair Lady skirts that they had prepared for the twins for" We are young and beautiful ". Please don't worry, mom. Hanka-Hannika's friend Tauris took her by car from Pärnu to the ship in Tallinn.

Doom began during the second show. The storm shakes the "Estonia" so much that a dancer falls into the drums twice in a row. The nightclub wobbles. They give up at half past eleven. There's no point in continuing through the storm; the musicians bring their instruments to safety, the girls go to sleep in their cabins on the fourth deck. Only one of them, Marge Rull, puts on her normal clothes instead of a nightgown because she has a strange feeling and Mother Veed's warning to be careful is still in her ear.

Then everything goes very quickly. Suddenly the ship is shaken by a dull crash, and enormous jolts shake the "Estonia" upside down. Marge, Hannely, Hanka-Hannika, Risto, Liina, Heddi and the others from the group run together to Deck 7, the twins suddenly turn around and run down the aisle, with Captain Piht and another officer after them. At 1.53 on board time, the "Estonia" sinks, only half an hour after she broadcast "Mayday". Several survivors later confirm that they saw the sisters along with the other undead Piht, Leiger, Müür and Bogdanow.

Why the disaster happened remains a mystery to this day. Everyone has found their own explanation and some have their own motive for keeping the puzzle a mystery.

The accident had to happen, believes Captain Hummel, it was only a matter of time. In its final report, the German group of experts, unlike the international average commission, does not blame construction errors, but rather neglected and sloppily executed repairs for the sinking of the "Estonia". The Atlantic lock, the bottom lock of the visor, was said to have broken because it had been extremely damaged by improper repairs and wear, just like the visor's hinges, while wide gaps to the right and left of the bow ramp had been sealed off by the crew with mattresses. "The ship was no longer seaworthy," says Hummel, the "Estonia" should not have been allowed to leave at all in this run-down condition.

If Hummel is right, then it would not be Meyer-Werft, but the Swedish-Estonian shipping company Estline, the Swedish shipping company Nordström & Thulin in their capacity as "Technical Manager" of the ship, the Swedish Maritime Authority and Bureau Veritas, which the " Estonia "issued a free ticket just before her last trip. But then Skuld, the shipping company's Norwegian liability insurance, could claim back SEK 600 million in damages that it paid to the victims' families. That would mean bankruptcy for the shipping company.

However, as long as the results of the international average commission and those of the German experts do not coincide, the questions about the causes of the largest European shipwreck since the Second World War cannot be definitively answered. Unless those surprisingly reappeared out of nowhere between life and death who were there and who could report on the exact course of the accident.

Nobody can know better what went on that night and in what condition the "Estonia" left than Captain Avo Piht, the chief engineer Lembit Leiger and the officer on watch on the bridge, Kaimar Kikas. Nobody can know more about those who are in the know than the Veide sisters and the ship's doctor Viktor Bogdanov: They were unlucky enough to be in a lifeboat with the witnesses.

The eight undead occasionally appear to relatives at night; and with some of them one cannot get rid of the feeling that they are receiving more than such dreamed signs of life. A member of the German commission of inquiry has information that Avo Piht has reported several times in Tallinn.

Sirje Piht favors two dreams, the one from the end of 1994 and one from three months ago. Both are similar in a crazy way: each time Avo kept her waiting, each time he pointed to his watch, each time he asked her to be patient, arguing that as the captain of the "Estonia" he had to do something first. He has an appointment to keep.

She does not tell of these encounters like someone who consoles himself with the inventions of the night because he can no longer expect anything from the whims of reality. She seems so convinced of the happy end of her misfortune that two months ago she dared to follow her husband on the trail of his disappearance. She drove with the successor to the "Estonia", the "Mare Balticum", from Tallinn to Stockholm. The ferry company had given her the cruise for the 42nd birthday of the silent captain.
ammattiamatööri
Jack Bauer
Viestit: 902
Liittynyt: Ma Syys 14, 2020 5:03 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja ammattiamatööri »

Joo siis ootas kun mietin:
1. Estonialla täysi matkavauhti
2. Keulaportti ja visiiri avataan tarkoituksella tuossa merenkäynnissä
3. Rekkaa tai mitä lie pusketaan keulaportin ja viisiirin kautta mereen vaikka aallot painaa laivaan helvetillisellä voimalla
4. Eihän ne itsessään sieltä autokannelta toki mereen tipahda joten tarvitaan henksua tähän vaikka vettä puskee samaan aikaan sisään kunnon voimalla.

Kaikkea en jaksanut nyt lukea mutta viittaan lähinnä tähän:
His recent findings are very intriguing: during the fatal journey, the bowdoors of the Estonia had been opened to throw two lorries with contraband cargo, which included radioactive material, overboard.
Mielestäni täysin yliammuttu teoria tai jos on edes teoriassa mahdollista niin miten ihmeessä tuo on osattu toteuttaa kun kellään tuskin on kiistäminen siitä mitkä olosuhteet turmayönä tuolla vallitsivat. Ei ne olosuhteet pahimmasta päästä olleet kuten jokainen tietää mutta voinee luokitella kovaksi merenkäynniksi kuiteskin.
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

Löysin täältä Der Spiegilistä pari muutakin kiinnostavaa juttua.

Tämä on vuodelta 1996 ja pohjaa näitä kahta muuta, tuota aiempaa kopioimaani ja seuraavaa: https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 10377.html

Sitten asiaan. Ilmeisesti Meyer Werftin päätelmät on olleet aika rajua kamaa vuonna 2000. He olivat siis vakuuttuneita, että jonkunlainen attentaatti on laivalla tehty. Yksityiskohdathan tässä vielä vähän hämäävät, mutta tässä on kuitenkin meille rutkasti tutkittavaa.

Koska juttu on ollut printtilehdessä, sen kuvat voi katsoa täältä minne koko juttu skannattu: https://docplayer.org/38878616-Bomben-a ... tonia.html
Bombs on the bow?

With 852 dead, the sinking of the "Estonia" was the largest civil shipping disaster in Europe - and possibly one of the greatest crimes in criminal history. A new report provides strong evidence that the ferry was sunk with three explosive devices.

By Helmar Büchel, Clemens Höges, Udo Ludwig and Andreas Ulrich

03/01/2000

It was the night of September 28, 1994: a rabid wind whipped the Baltic Sea, force nine on the Beaufort scale. The ferry "Mariella" carefully fights its way through the up to six meter high breakers in the Baltic Sea.

The officer on watch of the "Mariella" routinely listens to the international call and distress channel, VHF 16. It is 21 minutes past one o'clock in the night, Estonian time, when suddenly a weak voice interrupts the noise on the frequency: "Mayday, Mayday ", calls the Estonian ferry" Estonia ".

After a second emergency call, the officer of another ship asked: "What's going on?" Then the voice from the "Estonia" again: "We have a heavy list, I think 20, 30 degrees." Break. Then the "Estonia" radio gives the position: 59 degrees, 22 minutes north and 21 degrees, 48 ​​minutes east. 50 kilometers away from the nearest coast. Then there is only noise on channel 16. The "Estonia" no longer answers.

The officers of the "Mariella" give full speed to the radar echo of the "Estonia". At 53 minutes past one o'clock they know that they will be late: The "Estonia" disappears from the radar screen.

Shortly after two o'clock the "Mariella" reaches the last position of the "Estonia". From the bridge, the officers can see isolated sea rescue missiles staggering through the darkness like intoxicated birds. Flotsam dances on the waves, empty life jackets in between. In some life rafts, some turned upside down, others half torn, there are people: living and dead mixed up, some naked, many only in underwear or bathrobes. "There were lots of human bodies swimming around in the water, all of them dead," says Johan Larsson, a crew member of a rescue helicopter that arrives after the "Mariella".

"When we arrived," said "Mariella" captain Jan Tore Thörnroos, "many small lights floated on the sea" - the top lights of the inflatable life rafts. "When we went closer, we saw the people floating in the water and heard them screaming for help." One thing, says the Finnish survivor Hannu Seppänen, "you could hear really well, that was the screams of the women somewhere in the water, the screams of the women".

But the tall "Mariella" doesn't dare to get close enough - for fear of running over the drifting people. "The worst thing was when the bodies were sucked into our propellers," says Hemming Eriksson, a passenger on another ferry that is trying to save.

Of the approximately 250 people who were able to jump into the water from the sinking "Estonia", the helpers recover only 138 alive. The others drown, freeze to death in the ten-degree cold water, die of exhaustion or are killed by the breakers on the ship's hull. 852 people perish - most of them go down with the ship, surprised in their sleep, trapped in their cabins, trampled to death in panic. Some may have survived for a few minutes in trapped air bubbles.

The sinking of the "Estonia" was the worst shipping disaster in Europe after the Second World War. It is true that an international commission of inquiry commissioned by the governments of Sweden, Estonia and Finland wanted to end the discussion of the disaster with its final report two years ago.

But the report is full of omissions and inconsistencies, for which there are only two explanations: Either the Commission slouched considerably - or it did not want to know too precisely.

There are some arguments in favor of the cover-up theory: A central piece of evidence has been removed. And the underwater videos of the wreck, which is now between 58 and 85 meters deep, have been partially deleted.

Above all: To this day, the three countries prohibit their nationals from a new diving expedition by law. If someone else cruises at the scene of the accident for a long time, he will be pushed away or hindered by Swedish ships - as if the Swedes had something to hide.

Members of the commission insist on their version: The bow visor of the "Estonia", which forms the tip of the ship as a kind of breakwater in front of the loading ramp, was then designed too weakly. It was torn down, the ferry was full and sunk. The Meyer shipyard in Papenburg, Emsland, which built the ship, is to blame for the disaster. End the debate.

Are you kidding me? Are you serious when you say that. It should only really begin now: Last Thursday, the expert group in Sweden, hired by Meyer Werft, presented a more than 1,300-page report, with all attachments and special reports together, eleven files. On behalf of the shipyard, the German group of experts, headed by Hamburg lawyer Peter Holtappels, 64, and average expert Werner Hummel, 60, worked on this expertise for five years.

The team's conclusions are dramatic: on storm night there may have been a terrorist attack on the "Estonia". According to the report of a renowned explosives expert, three bombs exploded on the ship. In addition, the ship had been poorly maintained, which contributed to the disaster.

If the Hamburg experts are right - and they present plenty of evidence - this would be one of the greatest crimes in criminal history. And even worse: there are indications that the Swedish authorities could have expected a bomb attack on the ship - and still did not stop it.

About half a year before the disaster there was an extremely complex bomb alarm exercise on the "Estonia". The details of the major action on February 2, 1994 can be found in the files of the Stockholm Public Prosecutor's Office. There is, among other things, a paper entitled "Background to the scenario". "The shipping company Estline," it says, "has received bomb threats on a regular basis for a long time. All bomb threats were addressed by telephone to the shipping company in Stockholm."

“On February 2nd at 6 p.m.,” the paper continues, “the shipping company received a telephone bomb threat against the MS“ Estonia. ”This bomb threat came from a man who reported in bad Swedish that there were a number of bomb loads aboard the '' Estonia ''. They would detonate if he did not get a large sum of money. "

According to the scenario, the shipping company in Stockholm "immediately contacts the commander on board the '' Estonia ''". Afterwards "one decides in consultation with the commanding officer on board to send search dogs on board the '' Estonia" ".

The exercise can begin. According to the log of the operation, the fire teams of the "Estonia" are alerted by the password "Mr. Skylight".

A helicopter, one of several on this mission, lands on the "Estonia". Four police officers and two explosives search dogs jump on deck. "Very easily," according to the protocol, the dogs find a few grams of TNT that had been hidden on the car deck. Another charge, this completely fictitious, detonates according to the exercise plan. The rescue operation, according to the protocol, "went well".

Lennart Alberg from the Swedish Maritime Administration was one of the leaders of the exercise. It was already the second mission on the "Estonia", he says. The first exercise took place just a few days earlier, on January 25th. The background paper was of course a scenario, pure fiction, devised by a police officer.

However, there was a realistic background for this. At the end of 1993, Alberg says, a Swedish shipping company was blackmailed. Therefore, his authority has tightened the security precautions. The blackmailer was later caught.

Really all just fiction on the "Estonia"? Shortly before the ship actually went down, according to several survivors, the announcement suddenly came over the public address system: "Mr. Skylight, number one and number two" - the command for a fire alarm, for example. And Anders Wehtje, who worked in the Estline office in Stockholm until the end of 1999, admitted to SPIEGEL TV that at that time there might actually have been "two or three bomb threats" against his shipping company. But that is quite normal, "every ferry line gets something like this".

Shipping companies deal with the risk very differently. Wilhelm Teichert, for example, safety officer of the Förde Reederei Seetouristik in Flensburg, whose passenger ships operate across Europe, only remembers one bomb search on one of his ships. For Captain Günther Kullack from DFDS Seaways, however, bombing exercises at sea are not at all unusual: "We do something like that regularly."

But if the "Estonia" was actually sunk by a blackmailer bomb, there must be traces - and clear ones.

A year ago, the experts from Meyer Werft took a very close look at all the underwater videos of the wreck. On behalf of the government commission, experts had filmed the ship on three expeditions. Robots went down twice, and once more divers from the Norwegian specialist company Rockwater. The commission has released over 40 hours of material.

On one of the tapes, Hummel suddenly discovered a detail that he had previously missed: an orange parcel about the size of a cigar box.

Hummel stopped short. This wasn't part of the ship, clearly a foreign body to him. The expert now slowly looked at the recordings from the other side of the bow again. Difficult, because the quality of the tapes is often lousy, for long stretches nothing but patterns, gray on gray.

So he got no further, everything remained far too vague for him. Hummel had all tapes analyzed by a British video expert, his son-in-law Jonathan Bisson. He immediately determined that the official material had been manipulated and was by no means complete. Bisson sorted what the commission had approved and broken it down into still images, 25 per second of film (see page 66).

The German commission sent tapes and still videos to Brian Braidwood. In the world, hardly anyone knows more about explosive attacks on ships than the former Lieutenant-Commander of the British Navy.

He served in the Navy for 34 years, 25 of which as an explosives expert, in various command posts. As chief of the mine diving command in the Far East, he was responsible for all explosives operations east of Suez. Braidwood blew up reefs, cleared bombs and later trained seafarers and divers in counter-terrorism as the head of a special naval school. For the last 13 years in uniform he developed new defense techniques against bomb attacks for the Navy and dealt with almost all weapons with which ships can be blown up.

Today, the retired officer is called in as a civilian expert in the event of accidents, for example from insurance companies. When French agents sank the Greenpeace ship "Rainbow Warrior" off New Zealand in 1985, the government in Wellington asked Braidwood for help.

A BOMB ATTENTAT?

After Bisson's preparatory work, Braidwood analyzed the still images and underwater videos from the ominous package on the "Estonia". It hung right next to the bow ramp, not far from the hydraulic locks on the visor. The poor quality of the still images made difficulties for the expert, and the unfavorable perspective of the camera made the work difficult.

Even so, Braidwood concluded that there was a high probability that the package was a non-detonated device. The object, "no longer than 200 millimeters and no shorter than 100 millimeters", looks like a hand-packed load of plastic explosives - as strong as one to two kilograms of the classic explosives TNT. Enough to tear up the ten millimeter thick hull.

Martin Volk, former bomb defuser for the Berlin State Criminal Police Office, comes to the same conclusion. "It's probably plastic explosives," he says when asked by Hummel. The material is "highly explosive". In the former Eastern Bloc, mafia gangs can easily get hold of this material - as well as simple time detonators and magnetic plates as a holder.

Most of all, Volk is wondering why the question had not been investigated long ago: "From a small piece of metal in the immediate vicinity of the alleged explosion it could easily be determined whether explosives were used." Admittedly, the government commission was unable to detect any signs of explosions on the salvaged bow visor, which is located in a Swedish military base.

On the other hand, Braidwood found a lot more: three holes - all in the vicinity of the movable bow ramp and its vulnerable mechanics (see graphic on page 70).

Even Braidwood almost missed the first hole on the underwater videos. The diver had the camera attached to his helmet and quickly panned over the spot. But played in slow motion, it was clearly visible - a fairly round hole, about 30 centimeters in diameter and about the same height above the floor of the car deck in the steel wall. Braidwood believes the bomb might have been on something there.

"The hole is surrounded by prongs of torn metal that have been bent in all directions away from the center of the hole," said the bomb expert. His conclusion: "These points taken together suggest that a small explosion occurred on the side of the bulkhead, with the center of the explosion in the center of the hole." Damage of this kind is typical for bombs with an explosive force of around one to two kilograms of TNT.

The explosive charge would likely have ripped a larger hole if it hadn't already spilled water on the car deck, Braidwood said. That dampened the explosion: "Like all liquids, water is incompressible."

As Braidwood watched more videos, he discovered two even more devastating holes - again close to the bow ramp and visor, but this time on the opposite right side, to starboard.

The first of these two holes is about three feet below deck 3. The sharp steel spikes are "of the curved shape that appear when there is damage from an explosion". The massive steel edges are "bent in a way that can hardly come from any mechanical impact". Braidwood also believes he can see traces of smoke.

The specialist formulated his conclusion about this hole harshly: "The damage to the starboard locks of the visor was caused by an explosion. The charge was between one and two kilograms equivalent TNT. The explosive charge was placed on the forward bulkhead, directly above the lever for the manual side lock. The bomb could easily have been placed by someone following the route taken by a crew member responsible for the side lock. " The explosive device bent the heavy steel hook for manually securing the visor like thin sheet metal.

Expert Hummel therefore considers this Braidwood finding to be the most serious: The explosion pushed the bow visor forward and thus "broke the already damaged starboard hinge on the deck". The bow visor was barely held in place and thus sealed the fate of the "Estonia" (see graphic on page 69).

The second of the holes on the starboard side is probably the largest. In order to analyze it, Braidwood had to assemble several images. "The composite picture," he noted, gives "dramatic clarity an impression of the damage." Here, too, an explosive device had detonated, as indicated by the peculiarly bent metal edges around the hole.

According to Braidwood's measurement, the hole is eight feet long, from top to bottom. The explosion blew up whole pieces of metal from the bulkhead and tore the hydraulics apart. The steel girders of the twelve-tonne bow ramp are bent like the sheet metal of a discarded Coke can.

HUMMEL'S RESEARCH

In August Braidwood sent his results to Hamburg, a 120-page report. But Holtappels and Hummel had not only called on the specialists Braidwood and Bisson: as early as February 1995 they gathered a whole team of experts around them, including scientists from the Technical University and the Bundeswehr University in Hamburg. Of course, the troops are biased, after all, the shipyard has to fear claims for damages worth millions if they are to blame.

The Hamburg team interviewed witnesses in Sweden, Finland, England and the Baltic States. The experts carried out their own scientific experiments and produced models of the most important parts of the ship. "The real reason for the downfall should be covered up," Hummel suspected even before he had the Braidwood expertise in his hands. After research by his team and further statements from survivors, a version of the last "Estonia" trip can be reconstructed, which contradicts the official commission report on almost all important points.

Tallinn, Estonia, September 27, 1994: In the harbor lies the showpiece, the pride of the young state, the blue and white "Estonia" - not an old Soviet pot, but West German workmanship. The diesels are already running, the ship is filled with 40 trucks, 34 cars, 803 passengers and 186 crew members.

The Swedish truck driver Carl Övberg, 48, almost missed the ferry to Stockholm. Soldiers, he says, have cordoned off the "Estonia" pier. Two Scania trucks drive into the ship via the bow ramp. They will be added later on the freight list. What they had loaded so important that the army had to take care of it is still unclear - one of the many "Estonia" puzzles.

Dock workers cast off the lines at 7.15 p.m. - 15 minutes after the scheduled departure time, but nobody cares about the delay. Captain Arvo Andresson, 40, is considered a daring skipper. He often beats the 24,000 hp diesel engines so brutally that the "Estonia" rarely reaches its destination too late. "Regardless of the wind and weather," says Övberg, "the ship always arrived in Stockholm on time."

No passenger notices that the "Estonia" is sailing slightly to starboard. Hummel will later find out that water penetrates through rust holes before departure - and so the ferry is already battered towards its demise.

The officers think nothing of it. Such a huge ship, a good 155 meters long and ten decks high, can withstand minor leaks. Meyer Werft also has a good reputation, after all, the family company has been building ships since 1795.

In 1980 the ferry was launched. At the time she was one of the largest and most modern Baltic Sea ships of this type with her 15,566 gross register tons, designed for 2000 passengers and 460 cars. She was delivered to the Finnish shipping company Sally and initially served as "Viking Sally". After that the ship changed owner and name several times, sometimes it was called "Silja Star", sometimes "Wasa King".

In January 1993 the Estline Marine Company took over the ship. The company is a joint venture between the Swedish shipping company Nordström & Thulin and the Estonian state shipping company. For financial reasons, the owners registered their company in Cyprus. Before it went down, the ferry had traveled 20,500 hours, mostly between Turku, Tallinn and Stockholm.

The "Estonia" was equally popular with Swedish travelers, day trippers and traders. There was a tax-free shop, casino, and restaurants served decent food. From the beginning of the nineties, the Estonians also made use of their freshly won freedom to travel; traders with louder and less louder intentions benefited from the less controlled sea route.

Initially, the "Estonia" made good progress on its last voyage. But the weather forecasts sound bleak. The Swedish Meteorological Institute expects wind forces between seven and eight on the Beaufort scale, plus waves five and a half meters high. That is a lot for the Baltic Sea. Captain Andresson is not impressed when the wind picks up. He continues to steer through the sea at 19 knots, almost full speed.

At around 11 p.m., truck driver Övberg was finally assigned a cabin, number 1049 on deck 1 - below the waterline. Some tourists would suffer from claustrophobia there. But that's not what irritates Övberg today. He has already driven the "Estonia" several dozen times: "Everything was different that day. The team seemed very nervous and aggressive to me."

At some point that night the "Estonia" overtook the ferry "Mariella" because it was carefully fighting its way through the storm with throttled engines. Many "Estonia" guests have now taken their seats in the dance restaurant. But this time the pleasure only lasts for a short time: a dancer staggers into the drums twice in a row. Even the professionals on board recognize that they have to keep both feet on the ground in the rough sea.

When the musicians finally pack their instruments around midnight, many passengers tumble into bed. Most of them will have to pay for that with their lives. Only the die-hard night owls go to the "Pub Admiral" for a beer.

The Polish freighter "Amber" passed the "Estonia" at around 11:15 pm. The guard on duty wonders how hard the "Estonia" rushes through the night: "Those responsible on the bridge must be crazy, absolutely incompetent."

Below, deep in the hull of the ship, the truck driver Övberg realizes early on that there is an impending danger. "Suddenly I heard a bang, the whole ship vibrated," he recalls, "as if two objects had collided."

THE DOWNFALL

It is shortly before one o'clock in the night, board time, and the German pharmacist Manfred Rothe, 44, is up in the pub Admiral "hears a loud bang, almost thunder". It seems to him as if "iron hit iron". The first blow shakes the whole ship. A second follows shortly afterwards. It is as if the "Estonia" has stopped. She turns to the left, and immediately heels sharply to the right. All four machines stop; this happens automatically from an incline of 30 degrees.

Bottles and glasses tip off the shelves in the pub. A man jumps up and runs towards the exit. Everyone is running after them. In the cabins, passengers fall from their bunks.

The agricultural machinery mechanic Siegfried Wolf from Espelkamp is on his way to his bunk and passes the shopping line. When the "Estonia" lies on its side, the contents of entire walls of shelves fall to the floor. Panic breaks out. Someone is thrown against a pillar. He remains lying unconscious. Wolf only has one thought, he says: "Get out of here, get out quickly, up."

At the second bang, Övberg also fled: "I just got dressed and then ran out of my cabin." Several passengers hear detonations at the same time. Some hear only one, some two, some want to have heard three.

Bomb expert Braidwood believes that the explosive devices will explode at that moment. The ailing starboard hinge breaks. The hydraulic cylinder on the port side pierced the deck as if the "Estonia" were a sardine can. The so-called Atlantic lock, which holds the lower edge of the bow visor on the ship, gives way. The visor tips over - and crashes onto the tip of the bow ramp.

Övberg runs to the stairs, which are already dangerously sloping: "When I turned around, I saw water splash under the doors and from below from the ventilation pipes." He has only one goal: "Get out!" He makes it to deck 7, outside. Past falling and screaming people.

No law says: women and children first. Most of the survivors will be sturdy men between 20 and 40. A striking number of crew members, 43 in total, make it. Many of them wore life jackets early on - an indication that they were warned in good time?

The ship straightens up a bit, then it leans more and more. "If I hadn't known my way around so well," says Övberg today, "then I would never have made it."

When the German pharmacist Rothe also reached deck 7 shortly after one o'clock, he saw a crew member tampering with a box. Life jackets are stowed there. Little by little, more refugees are pushing outside. Rothe throws them west. Soon around 200 people will freeze in the wind. And because the ship is leaning further and further to starboard, the first ones climb over the railing. They now find a better grip on the trunk.

You are far from being saved. The lifeboats are jammed in their davits. And of the life rafts - rubber rafts that inflate automatically - most are broken or turned upside down by the storm. Some of them panic and slide down their hulls into the water and tear their backs on steel parts. Believers pray.

Wolf and Rothe discover a life raft that has inflated on the now almost horizontal hull. But when they seal closer, they see that it is already overcrowded.

The pharmacist Rothe clings to the outer wall of the island and in the next instant is thrown into the raging sea by a heavy gust of raft. It tears the lifeline of the island out of his hands, he is now floating alone in the water. Again and again the heavy crushers push it under the surface.

But Rothe is a trained lifeguard. He tells himself that he still has a chance. Finally he gets hold of a suitcase. He hears the ship giving one last sign of life. The captain lets the foghorn howl into the night again.

The moonlight shines pale on the water, and for a brief moment it seems to Rothe as if the sea has become calm - probably because he is lying in the slipstream of the ship. The "Estonia" sinks, stern first.

In expert circles, the tall and therefore wobbly roll-on roll-off ferries with their entrances and exits at the bow and stern have long been considered endangered. Since the sinking of the British canal ferry "Herald of Free Enterprise" in 1987 (193 dead) and that of the Polish "Jan Heweliusz" in 1993 (55 dead), the so-called RoRo technology has been controversial. A rapid ingress of water, whatever, could put the pots with their vehicle decks as large as underground garages "on their backs like a turtle," explains Ian Dand from the shipbuilding research institute British Maritime Technology.

Since the sinking of the "Titanic", international maritime law has required the installation of so-called bulkheads, watertight partition walls that pull the ship through from the keel to above the waterline. In this way, water flowing through a leak can only flood part of it - in theory. The "Titanic" also had bulkheads and was considered unsinkable. But the saving walls were too low - similar to the "Estonia".

The shipyards pull in a high bulkhead between the ramp and the hold on ro-ro ferries going out at sea. But it hinders fast loading and unloading. That is why shipping companies like to do without it. Because the "Estonia" was only built for coastal travel - she should not cross more than 20 nautical miles from land - she was approved without a bulkhead behind the bow visor. For this, the ramp behind the visor should be waterproof.

BUMPER ON THE "ESTONIA"

Even the Finnish owners ignored the annoying restriction of their sea route. And in Estonia, the maritime authority had delegated its control obligation to the French classification society "Bureau Veritas" due to a lack of staff. According to the German experts, this gave the "Estonia" permission for long voyages - a fatal mistake.

The government commission believes, however, that the "Estonia" otherwise left Tallinn in a properly seaworthy condition. Wrong, say the Hamburg experts. Their research showed that at the latest since the sale of the ship to the Estline, the ramp and front visor had not been properly maintained. Witnesses, for example, reported negligently executed welds on important mountings. Rain Oolmets, a former crew member of the "Estonia", said he had to cover up the botch with a lot of paint. The tip of the ship, where, according to the Braidwood report, the explosives exploded, must have been worn out and ailing for a long time.

According to eyewitnesses, the water often stood two and a half meters high between the visor and the ramp. The captain of a pilot boat claims to have observed a few days before the sinking how streams of water shot out of the visor whenever the "Estonia" rose from the waves.

The Swedish pilot Bo Söderman told Hummels researchers that he had seen the water sloshing back and forth ten centimeters high on the entire car deck on an earlier voyage - a load weighing tons that would destabilize any ship.

The Hummel troop also compiled statements from passengers who reported that the crew had repeatedly worked on the bow with a cutting torch and sledgehammer because the visor could no longer be opened and closed properly.

The history of the so-called Atlantic Lock sounds even more alarming. It mainly consists of a thick bolt that fixes the bottom of the bow visor to the ship's hull. The former "Estonia" boatman Juhani Luttunen says this lock no longer worked properly. After his colleague Christer Koivisto got down to it with a hammer and cutting torch, it had become largely unusable. The Swedish manufacturing company then repaired all of the parts - and forbade the crew to fumble with them again.

Koiviston is said not to have adhered to this verdict. Apparently, Luttunen therefore blames his colleague for the downfall. On June 12, 1996, almost two years after the "Estonia" sank, he shot his old friend in the head. Luttunen goes to psychiatry for the murder.


Various testimonies give the Hamburg experts a scenario that could explain the strange noises that passengers on deck 1 heard shortly before the detonations: According to Hummel, water pours out of the visor through the warped bow ramp onto the car deck at the start of the journey. The crew opens the tailgate a little to drain the water. That might hasten the downfall later. In addition, the men try to stop the leaks at the front with mattresses and blankets - a theory that is dismissed as nonsense by commission members to this day. But on the video still images, mattresses on the bow ramp can be clearly seen.

Despite the heavy seas, the captain remains at his high speed. Around 0.30 a.m., according to the German experts, the sailor Silver Linde informed the bridge about the chaos below. The officer on watch then dispatched some crew members to try to close the bow with hammer and hydraulics. According to Braidwood's theory, they died immediately when the explosives detonated. The water flows through the open bow and capsizes the ferry.


But Hummel has still not solved one riddle: "There must be another hole below the waterline."

Dracos Vassalos, Ro-Ro expert in the Department of Ship and Marine Technology at the University of Strat hclyde in Glasgow, fed the available data into his computer and kept the "Estonia" overturning on the screen. Result: Everything fit, and still - it didn't work that way. Why, asked Hummel after the Vassalos analysis, can the overturned "Estonia" have disappeared almost immediately like a stone in the sea? "If such a ferry gets water on the car deck," says the accident specialist, "it tips over and drifts for days on end" - unless there is another hole in the bottom of the hull through which the air can escape when the water hits flows in.

Hummel found evidence of his suspicion on the videos. Next to the wreck of the "Estonia" he saw parts of truckloads on the seabed. The openings on the bow and stern ramps are too small for such large items of cargo, such as the pallets. The statements of the truck driver Övberg also confirmed the theory, as he saw water flowing in from below on his deck - under the vehicles.

But the commission of inquiry set up by the Prime Ministers of Sweden, Finland and Estonia does not seem to want to know exactly. She had already finished her version on October 3rd, five days after the sinking: "We now know what happened", it was said at the time, "we just have to investigate how it came about."

Admittedly, not all commission experts believed in the theory, which almost all of Meyer Werft was to blame. Quarrel broke out again and again, some members threw down. When the Commission presented the official 200-page report in December 1997, experts immediately found the first errors. The head of the Meteorological Institute in Stockholm said, for example, that the information about the weather situation was incorrect. A bereaved lawyer spoke of "systematic deception and blackout".

The principle is quite simple, says the German survivor Rothe: "There are three parties sitting at a table and shoving the buck to anyone who is not there" - the shipyard in Germany. Because all three countries have weak spots: the Swedes, who should have controlled the ship more closely; the Estonians, who owned part of the ship; the Finns, who were accused of errors in the rescue operation.

Cover-up on a grand scale

Soon there are indications from which relatives of victims conclude that the commission was trying to cover up something in order to absolve the three countries of all guilt. had been obliged, had also lifted the bolt of the Atlantic lock - a central detail, as the lock was, according to the commission, designed too weakly by Meyer Werft and therefore failed. But hardly recovered, the representative of the official commission, Börje Stenström, took the piece of steel - and threw it back into the water. Reason: The bolt was too heavy and no longer fit in the helicopter.

After that, the Swedish government dared what critics consider to be one of the most expensive cover-ups in history. The plan was for the wreck to disappear under a massive concrete cover for all eternity, similar to the Chernobyl disaster reactor. Official reason: Nobody should disturb the peace of the dead. The Finnish "Estonia" investigator Kari Lehtola admits: "Normal divers cannot work at this depth, over 60 meters. Even the Finnish Navy cannot."

The Swedish government wanted to have the action cost 65 million marks, and it was in a strange hurry. Even before the plan was approved in Stockholm, ships carted tons of rubble and rubble and tipped them over the "Estonia". Only massive protests by Swedish citizens and relatives stopped the maneuver.

After all, the three commission countries achieve one thing: they seal off "Estonia" with a ban miles law. Since July 1, 1995, every citizen from Sweden, Finland and Estonia has even risked imprisonment if they approach the scene of the accident too boldly.

Critics wonder. Countries like the United States do a lot to solve disasters. In an operation costing several million marks, one of the most modern special ships in the world is currently trying to recover rubble and victims of the EgyptAir crash off the American east coast. Only in the case of "Estonia", the governments involved want to make everything forgotten as quickly as possible.

With all the secrecy, it is not surprising that all kinds of speculation will soon flourish. In 1995 an alleged secret dossier from former agents of the Russian secret service KGB emerges. The "Felix Report", so named after the founder of the later KGB, Felix Dzerzhinsky, contains numerous reports on crimes in the former Soviet Union as well as several pages on the sinking of the "Estonia". A drug lord smuggled large quantities of heroin and 40 tons of cobalt onto the ship in two trucks. The authorities had learned of the planned deal that an assistant to the drug dealer ("Jurij") then forced Captain Andresson to throw the cargo overboard. Therefore the visor was opened. "Unqualified shit talk"calls the former commissioner Olof Forssberg something like that.

According to the Felix report, the Estonian customs officer Igor Krishtapovich is said to have overheard the radio telephone call between Jurij and Andresson. There is no evidence of this. Only one thing has been proven: three weeks after the ferry went down, Krishtapovich was shot dead by strangers in Tallinn.

Another conspiracy theory sounds even more daring: Western intelligence agents had obtained high-tech weapons from Russia and brought those out of the country with the "Estonia". To stop the hustle and bustle, Russian agents blew up the ship.

Of all the daring stories, the most plausible is the version according to which the Estline could have been blackmailed and the "Estonia" was sunk because the shipping company did not pay.

Swedes and Estonians are still concerned with one more inconsistency: shortly after the disaster, eight crew members were reported as rescued on the official government lists. Witnesses also claim to have seen the second captain, the chief engineer and two dancers. Only later were they pronounced dead. Wild rumors emerge that they are still alive somewhere today.

No wonder that the relatives of victims and survivors still want to know how the disaster really came about. The so-called SEA organization, in which around half of all Swedish relatives are organized, wants to rescue the dead and have the investigation rolled out again. "There are still many approaches," believes SEA spokesman Lennart Berglund.

At the beginning of 1999 the so-called Independent Facts Group was founded, also in Sweden. The family organization consists of the management consultant Björn Stenberg, the engineer Johan Ridderstolpe and, according to Stenberg, five other members. Like Hummel, the troops believe that there is a large hole in the hull.

"We want to know the real facts," says Stenberg, who lost a brother on the "Estonia": "Whatever caused the accident, it has to be found out so that something like this never happens again."

https://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-15348746.html
Hesarinpalvojille terveisiä, että voitte aamukahvinne kanssa pohtia, että mitäs siinä kuukausiliitteen jutussa tästä asiasta oikein sanottiinkaan. Eihän Hesari valehtele.
ammattiamatööri
Jack Bauer
Viestit: 902
Liittynyt: Ma Syys 14, 2020 5:03 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja ammattiamatööri »

Tässä on ruvennut tulemaan jotenkin tarve perata vanhoja pätkiä niin tuli taas tälläinen eteen. En osaa viroa eli ei tietoa onko käännös oikein mutta kuuluisat konemiehet YLE:n uutisissa.
Kuva
Mielestäni edelleen viittaa siihen, että keularamppi ei ole revennyt vaan pysynyt kiinni. Lähinnä keularampin tiivisteet tms. pettäneet ja vettä tullut sivuista sisään. Toki voihan tuota teoriaa aina hakea, että on itse keularamppi vedellyt ylösalas mutta ei täsmää virallisen teorian kanssa missä keulavisiiri repäisi keularampin auki ja sitten mentiin ramppi auki ja vauhdilla. Käsittääkseni nää konemiehet ainakin YLE:n dokkarin mukaan poistuivat laivasta silloin kun kallistuma oli tyyliä 45 astetta nyt vähintään joten näille havainnoille pitäisi antaa suurempi painoarvo. Ovat myös juosseet sieltä ykköskerroksesta vauhdilla pihalle mutta oman käsityksen mukaan näiden todistajalausunnot kertovat, että ei siellä ollut koko keula avonaisena. Tai sitten vaan puhuvat täyttä paskaa. Oma pelikirja sanoo joka tapauksessa edelleen, että visiiri voi olla, että lähti menemään mutta ramppi pysyi paikoillaan hamaan tappiin saakka.

Vuotoja on autokannelle tullut jotenkin mikä on laivan stabiilisuutta haitannut mutta ei vaan mahdu päähän virallinen selitys. Jos se keularamppi olisi myös ollut auki koko turman ajan niin miksi siitä ei ole mitään videotodisteita näyttää kun se on kuiteskin käyty myös ainakin ulkopuolelta tsekkaamassa. Eli siis mikäli se ramppi on ollut auki niin homma done miksei näistä ikinä ole annettu todisteita ja lyöty kaikille "foliohatuille" luu kurkkuun? Edelleen muistanette ne Estonian sukellukset JAIC:n toimesta. Medialle ja yleisölle ei näytetty yhtään mitään muuta kuin tyyliin Estonian perä missä lukee Estonia. Kaikki muu materiaali taidettiin piilottaa jonnekkin en edes tiedä minne.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR-MROwKuiU
damfin
James Bond (David Niven)
Viestit: 10703
Liittynyt: Ke Elo 10, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja damfin »

Tapahtuma-aikaan nyt ei ollut vielä youtubeja sun muita jossa kaikki sukellusmateriaali olisi voitu kiinnostuneille jakaa, mutta näkyyhän tuosta rockwaterin sukelluksesta melkein kahden tunnin video nykyisin youtubesta löytyvän että ei tuota nyt kovin hyvin ole piilotettu, videolta löytyy myös kohta jossa kuvataan vaurioitunutta osittain auki olevaa keulaporttia, vääntyneet ajorampit näkyy selvästi.
https://youtu.be/a9qcygmXU2o

Mainitaan tämä nyt vielä kerran, se keulaportin yläreuna meni keulavisiirissä olevaan kotelointiin, eli rakenne varmisti sen että keulavisiirin pettäessä visiirin 50 tonnin paino vetää keulaporttia auki.

Lisäksi vielä kerran tuosta keulavisiirin ja atlanttilukon lekalla aukaisemisesta, se atlanttilukko sijaitsi keulaportin ja keulavisiirin välisessä tilassa joka ei siis aallokossa ole varsinaisesti vesitiivis tila, eli jos sinne jostain huoltoluukusta pääsisi, niin voisi olla melko karu paikka käydä lekomassa sitä atlanttilukkoa tuollaisessa merenkäynnissä.
Avatar
MissMallard
Axel Foley
Viestit: 2469
Liittynyt: Ke Syys 16, 2015 4:24 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja MissMallard »

xflr6 kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 10:30 pm
MissMallard kirjoitti: Su Loka 11, 2020 6:31 pm Ei se venäläinen sukellusvene ehkä nyt niin provokatiivisesti lähestynyt Viking Mariellaa. Se tuosta jutusta tuli ilmi että sukellusveneillä on usein saattoalus.
Mutta jos Estonian turmaan liittyisi sukellusveneen saattoalus niin se lienee tutkassa havaittu ja jonkun silmään osunut. Toki jostain valoistahan siellä on ollut mainintaa.

Venäläinen sukellusvene ajoi kohti Viking Mariellaa - katso video https://www.is.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000000800700.html
Ja mitähän joku 20v myöhemmin kirkkaassa valossa ajava sukellusvene liittyy Estoniaan?

Tuntuu että täällä nyt mennään aika puhtaasti pöpelikköön ja kauhistellaan aivan asiaankuulomattomilla faktoilla tai keksitään päästä fiktiivisiä mälläyskertomuksia kuinka kuolla Itämerellä.

Haluaisin itse kernaasti keskustella Estonian upottamisen motiiveista, todella hedelmällistä pohdintaa ollut täällä aikaisemmin
Kauhistellaan, fiktiivisiä kertomuksia? Missä on oma antisi tähän ketjuun eli ne upottamisen motiivit ja oma hedelmällinen pohdintasi? Voisitko laittaa omia pohdintojasi tänne niin arvioidaan niiden hedelmällisyyttä.
Tässä ketjussahan on vain sivu tolkulla pitkiä rimpsuja kopioituja tekstejä netistä. En pidä sitä hedelmällisenä pohdintana kylläkään. Jokainen osaa kopioida tekstejä tähän ketjuun. Mutta joitakin hyviä pohdintoja toki on joiltakin henkilöiltä.
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