Estonia

Parapsykologia, PSI, rajatieto, kummitukset, salaliitot.
damfin
James Bond (Pierce Brosnan)
Viestit: 13831
Liittynyt: Ke Elo 10, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja damfin »

matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti: Pe Loka 30, 2020 3:17 pm Ylipäänsä muuten, jos kuvittelette hetken, että olette Onnettomuustutkintakeskuksessa töissä ja selvitätte poikkeuksellista merionnettomuutta; miten voi olla mahdollista tiedottaa heti seuraavana päivänä, että syy oli keulavisiirin tai yhtään minkään asian? Ammattitutkijat tietää, että ensin tutkitaan, sitten hutkitaan kun päästään vapaalle. Ei toisin päin. Kuka osaa muka sanoa, että keulavisiiri ei irronnut uppoamisen varsinaisen syyn seurauksena? Ainoastaan taho, joka haluaa, että asia tutkitaan perse edellä puuhun -taktiikalla eli ensin kerrotaan syy, sitten todistetaan se syyksi. Ymmärrätte varmasti, että ette itsekään tekisi tutkimusta tällä tavalla.
Onko sinulla jotain faktaa tuosta että Onnettomuustutkintakeskus olisi heti seuraavana päivänä tiedottanut keulavisiirin irtoamisen olleen onnettomuuden syy?

Itse muistan että onnettomuutta seuraavana päivänä suhtauduttiin vielä hyvin epäilevästi joidenkin pelastuneiden väitteisiin siitä että laivasta olisi puuttunut keulavisiiri sen upotessa ja sen puuttuminen vahvistettiin vasta ensimmäisten vedenalaisten kuvien saamisen jälkeen.

Eli melko omituiselta kuulostaa nyt tuollaiset väitteet että Onnettomuustutkintakeskus olisi jo seuraavana päivänä tiedottanut onnettomuuden syyksi keulavisiirin irtoamisen.
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

Täältä tulee faktaa. Onneksi on saksalaiset pitäneet hyvin kirjaa, että missä on menty ja missäkin vaiheessa.
On 28 September 1994 at 16.00 hours – 14 hours after the sinking – the Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt declared in Turku, that the accident had been caused by a “design mistake”. Shortly later he forced the Seasafety Director Bengt-Erik Stenmark of Sjöfartsinspektionen – see Chapter 6.3.1 of our Report – to resign under humiliating circumstances as he did not react the way the Prime Minister expected him to do.

When Bildt was interviewed in 1998 by Peter Öhrn’s Analyse Group* - hereafter called the Peter Öhrn Group – he stated according to the protocol: “It was obvious that the bow visor had gone up.” Already on 28 September 1994 at the airport of Turku Bildt discussed this problem with the Finnish Prime Minister Esko Aho. It was an important matter to both of them as most of the Finland traffic was operated by ferries with bow visors.

Bildt’s security adviser Jonas Hafström stated, when interviewed by the Peter Öhrn Group: “Carl Bildt wished Mats Odell** to have investigated by Sjöfartsverket (see Chapter 6.3 of our Report) whether there were other ferries trading with the same construction. It was a Finnish design. Carl Bildt said that there was no other explanation for the casualty.”

Carl Bildt made another phone call from Turku Airport and spoke to the Managing Director of Estline, Hans Laidwa in Stockholm, and informed him that the casualty had been caused by a “design mistake”. This means that the Prime Minister, pretending to have sufficient technical knowledge to make such statements, found it necessary to put the mind of the Managing Director of the Shipping Company responsible for the operation of MV ESTONIA at ease with regard to the cause of the accident. At a time when the wreck was not even (officially) found and definitely not inspected by experts!

In the interview by the Peter Öhrn Group, Bildt furthermore stated that his Estonian colleague, Prime Minister Maart Laar, had told him, that “an Estonian sailor on the car deck had reported that the visor had been lifted from below”. Linde was the only sailor officially on the car deck. What he has really testified can be found in Chapter 21.2.2, pages 446 ff. of our Report and what his testimonies are worth is stated in Chapter 18 of this Update. The Prime ministers – not having any detailed knowledge - naturally could not know that nobody could not possibly see the visor moving from the car deck as long as the ramp was closed. To further strengthen his allegations Bildt also referred to “key witnesses in the engine room” – 3rd engineer Margus Treu and systems engineer Henrik Sillaste - who indeed had reported that after some heavy bangs the list followed and that they then saw on the monitor that water was pressing through at both sides of the bow ramp. The ramp was then still upright, but the two expert witnesses could have assumed reasonably that the visor might have been damaged, but they could never have seen whether it “had been lifted up from below” and certainly not that this had been caused by a “design mistake”.

Neither Carl Bildt, nor Maart Laar nor Esko Aho could know on 28 September 1994 – the day of the casualty – if and – if so - why the visor had been separated from the vessel, unless they had undisclosed information. Nevertheless, they decided in their assumed omnipotence, that the accident had been caused by “a design mistake”. As has been shown, the following casualty investigation carried out by the JAIC followed this prejudice to the bitter end of the investigation and their own credibility. The degree of Carl Bildt’s surety, that the Scandinavian and Estonian authorities would accept his prejudice is vividly demonstrated by the fact that he took the time to phone Laidwa to put his mind at ease. And that he enforced the resignation of Seasafety Director Bengt-Erik Stenmark with the kind assistance of Mats Odell and the media.

* En granskning av Estoniakatastrofen och des följder“ – Delrapport ar Analysgruppen, Stockholm 1998, in translation: „An examination of the Estonia catastrophe and its consequences“ – Part Report of the Analysis Group (hereafter called ‚the Peter Örn Group’). The documentation is available in the Swedish Riksarchive, Stockholm.

** Mats Odell was Communications Minister in Sweden under Bildt. The Communications Ministry in Sweden is the Transport Ministry in other countries.

One month later, on the 28 October 1994, Börje Stenström presented a first scenario about what could have occurred. Börje Stenström was member of the JAIC and head of the technical group of the JAIC. (See Chapter 35 of our Report.) He informed the public - hardly surprising – that the locking devices of the visor had failed. Several weeks later Stenström informed the public that the locking devices had been designed too weak to withstand the foreseeable sea loads and that’s why they had failed – the “design mistake” was perfect – the blame was on the builders of the ferry, the Jos. L. Meyer Yard in Papenburg. The Swedish, Finnish, Estonian Maritime Safety Administrations, the Estonian and Swedish part owners and – last but not least – Bureau Veritas were declared “not responsible” Already 6 months after the casualty the so-called “Part–Report covering technical issues on the capsizing on 28 September 1994 in the Baltic Sea of the ro-ro passenger vessel MV Estonia” was published by the JAIC which focused exclusively on the “Bow Visor Attachment Devices” – the locking devices of the visor – mentioned the “Location of the collision bulkhead and the ramp” as a sideline, however did ignore any other alternative cause against their better own judgement and even went so far as to state in the Preface to the Part Report:

»The Commission has previously concluded that the accident was initiated by the locking devices for the bow visor being unable to withstand the loads imposed during the prevailing speed, heading and sea conditions. This conclusion is still valid.

This part-report covers main technical findings and conclusions. The final report to be issued later will cover also all other factors and circumstances found to have contributed to the development of the accident. This will include inter alia operation practices, certification and inspections, stability information, weather conditions and training. Rescue operations and resources will be covered as well.

The content of the current part-report may be amended and editorially modified as part of the final report but it is anticipated that all facts and conclusions reported herein will remain unchanged in substance.«

Therewith the “design mistake” was established as a fact and from then on the JAIC maintained this prejudice – with the assistance of the authorities and Government institutions involved in Sweden, Finland and Estonia.

In the following the relevant parts of the interviews conducted by the Peter Öhrn Group with Prime Minister Carl Bildt, his security adviser Jonas Hafström and his military adviser Commander Emil Svensson will be quoted and commented in conjunction with the other interviews:

(1) Carl Bildt – Prime Minister until October 7, 1994 - (Interview No. I/13):

The interview took place in the presence of Gun Hellsvik (3) Minister of Justice and Olaf Ehrenkrona* (not interviewed) – Head of the Planning Department in the Prime Minister’s office.

During the evening of 27 to 28 September 1994 the Bildt Government was celebrating the farewell party in the Prime Minister’s office at Rosenbad** together with their political civil servants. Bildt and some others were just about to leave when Bildt got the message*** that a Finland ferry was in trouble. He does not remember from whom. He turned around and went back to his office and subsequently made several phone calls during the night, among others with the prime ministers of Estonia and Finland. At about 06.00 hours he spoke to his successor Ingvar Carlsson.

At 07.00-07.30 hours the head of the Prime Minister’s office, Olaf Ehrenkrona arrived. In the morning there was a cabinet meeting. It was decided to hold a meeting of the prime ministers of Estonia, Finland and Sweden the same afternoon in Turku.

* Olaf Ehrenkrona in his capacity as Head of the Planning Department in the Prime Minister’s Office as well as the State Secretary in the Defence Ministry, Mikael Sahlin, having been in charge instead of the Minister Anders Björk, are both the key witnesses, however both were not interviewed.

** The 7-floor building housing the Administration of the Prime Minister is called Rosenbad.

*** According to the interview No IV/17 with the Swedish ambassador in Helsinki (in 1998) Holger Rotkirch – the Prime Minister has his own alarm system. See also interviews I/30 - Alf Svensson, II/3 - Peter Egardt and II/19 - Lars Christiansson.

The following was noted on Carl Bildt’s report concerning the Turku meeting:

»In Turku the atmosphere was strange. In the hospital Carl Bildt and the other prime ministers spoke to the survivors, among others to an Estonian sailor* who had been on the car deck. Carl Bildt did not speak his language but the other prime ministers could talk to him. It was obvious that the bow visor had gone up. Already at the airport in Turku Carl Bildt discussed the problem with Esko Aho** because the whole Finland traffic operates with bow visors. This was both a moral and economical question (the extensive transport of goods).

There was not the slightest doubt for Carl Bildt that the bow visor had been torn open.*** Sjöfartsverket, however, stated that this was not possible.** **Carl Bildt became furious about Sjöfartsverket’s paper in this question. This paper should be found somewhere. He seems to remember that he kept it. The Communications Ministry** ** *was the contact level for the Prime Minister’s office to Sjöfartsverket. Carl Bildt passed on his irritation through this Ministry. It is possible that the Government provoked Sjöfartsverket (SFV) to take up the question concerning bow visors.«

* This was Silver Linde – see Chapter 18 of this Update.

** Esko Aho was the Finnish Prime Minister.

*** As a matter of fact the bow visor was torn open – however by explosion – see Chapters 16/17 of this Update.

** ** This was the stubborn Seasafety Director Bengt-Erik Stenmark.

** ** * Minister Mats Odell – Interview 1/27.

The remaining part of the interview deals with questions relating to the recovery of bodies/salvage of the wreck.
The complete interview is attached as Enclosure 26 – in Swedish.

(2) Jonas Hafström, Security Adviser to the Prime Minister up to 07.10.94 – Interview II/23. He left the farewell party at Rosenbad at about 23.30 hours and went home where he was phoned at 02.00/03.00 hours by his sister and informed of the catastrophe. His sister was a high ranking civil servant in the Defence Ministry, then obviously informed already. Subsequently he was asked to attend an early morning meeting in the Prime Minister’s Office which took place at 07.45 hours with Carl Bildt, Olaf Ehrencrona, Per Zetterqvist and himself attending. Carl Bildt reported about the occurrences of the night. Either he had spoken already to Esko Aho*(4) and Maart Laar* or he did it during their meeting. In any event, a meeting of the three Prime Ministers was agreed to be held the same afternoon on the Finnish Island Utö.

From this time Jonas Hafström kept a continuous record of the occurrences of this long day from which he quoted in the course of the interview. A Swedish-Estonian investigation commission was considered. After discussions with his Finnish counterpart Pekka Houtaniemi it was decided to have the meeting in Turku, where survivors could be visited in the hospital.

At 09.00 hours there was a meeting in the cabinet-room and an Estonian-Finnish-Swedish investigation commission was discussed, there were uncertainties about who should be the members. Even the passenger lists were discussed and it turned out that the Swedish Estline was in the same state of disorder as was the Estonian side.

Hafström connected Bildt with Laidwa – Managing Director Estline – because Bildt wanted to have “direct facts”.

Hafström made the travel arrangements and ordered the Swedish ambassador in Helsinki, Mats Bergkvist, to come to Turku.

Carl Bildt was always leading and organising all the time.

At 09.30 hours there was a further meeting with Carl Bildt, Olaf Ehrencrona, Lars Christiansson** and himself and the course for the day was set. The Swedish ambassador in Tallinn was brought up-to-date.

At 10.30 hours Carl Bildt spoke to his successor Ingvar Carlsson***, to whom he had already spoken early in the morning.

* Maart Laar was then and subsequently again the Estonian Prime Minister.

** Lars Christiansson was the media manager of the Government responsible for the complete media work of the Government – see his interview II/19.

*** Ingvar Carlsson was the newly elected Prime Minister of Sweden.

Subsequently it was decided that also the military adviser Commander Emil Svensson should accompany Carl Bildt in his Navy uniform to Turku.

11.00 hours – Cabinet meeting.
12.20 hours – Departure from Bromma Airport for Turku.

During the flight they were informed that the program in Turku would comprise

visiting the rescue centre
the survivors in the hospital
a press conference.

Still during the flight a TT-flash was received. It was reported that an Estonian crew member had reported to journalists that the bow door had been open (before the casualty).

After landing in Turku they were received by several dozens of journalists and Carl Bildt said a few words.

They met the other Prime Ministers is the Rescue Centre. The Finnish Prime Minister stated that the cause of the accident was unknown. Carl Bildt thanked him and asked among other things “what happens to a sinking vessel?” The employees of the Rescue Centre replied that the vessel was resting at a water depth of 62-99 m in International Waters, which belongs to the Finnish economic zone, and that at such a depth nobody could live. What actually happened to the vessel itself was not the problem of the Rescue Services. Emil Svensson (Note: Commander and military adviser to Carl Bildt) said that Sweden had an ROV capable of working in a water depth of up to 300 m.

Subsequently the Prime Ministers had a personal meeting which the Swedish Ambassador in Helsinki, Mats Bergkvist, attended, while Jonas Hafström informed the Prime Minister’s office in Stockholm about the situation.

After the meeting of the three Prime Ministers Carl Bildt gave a briefing whereby he dealt with four subjects, viz.

An Estonian investigation commission which would be joined by Finland and Sweden.
Finland is responsible to locate the wreck. Sweden will help.
It is important to find as many victims as possible.
The sea safety in the Baltic has to be improven. It was further agreed that those responsible for the investigation commission should meet the same evening in Turku.*

Subsequently the Prime Ministers visited the hospital and Carl Bildt met three Swedish survivors.

Maart Laar had spoken in the hospital to three Estonian crew members. They had been on the car deck. They saw a wave which lifted the bow visor up. It was thereupon determined that if this had been the case there must have been a “design mistake”.

In this connection Carl Bildt phoned Mats Odell from the airport and instructed him to have Sjöfartsverket investigate whether there were other ferries of the same design in operation. It was a Finnish design and Carl Bildt was of the opinion that there was no other explanation possible for the accident. Carl Bildt also phoned Hans Laidwa** of the owners to inform him about what had been achieved on this subject.

They were most concerned about the information received from Maart Laar, which only they knew and had to pass it on to others.

At a subsequent meeting after their return to the Prime Minister’s office Carl Bildt reported among other things again about the ‘design mistake’ and that it had to be found out whether this existed on other vessels as well.

The complete interview of Jonas Hafström is attached - in Swedish – as Enclosure 27.

* At this time the later chairman of the Finnish JAIC, Kari Lethola had already been in Turku since about 06.00 hours in the morning and had probably even been on Utö already.

** Hans Laidwa was - as stated above - the responsible managing director of the owners of the sunken ferry with about 1000 victims and as such he should have been one of the most important witnesses in the forthcoming investigation. He has, however, never been questioned.

(3) Commander Emil Svensson (Interview No. III/9) - Military adviser to Carl Bildt until 07.10.94 – thereafter for also some time for the new Government.

He was a member of the security analysis group in the office of the Prime Minister and head of the Swedish delegation during the submarine discussions with Russia, furthermore he had to analyse the military situation in the Baltic.

He was on the flight to Turku (he says to Helsinki), asked many times “how and why could it happen?” and did report about the danger of the “free surface effect”*. It was his assumption that by whatever means a lot of water must have penetrated on to the car deck and subsequently the free surface effect reduced the stability of the ferry to such an extent that she capsized. “And one hour on this side for this vessel increased the effect additionally.” A few decimetres only created an incredible effect on a large area (such as the car deck).

During the briefing in the Turku rescue centre he was asked many questions about how to locate the vessel, which he did not consider to be a problem, and how divers could enter the vessel (at this time they or at least he did not know how the wreck was resting on the ground.).

»It would have been possible to lift the wreck, first of all the Russians could do this, but also the Swedes would manage. But it takes time and a lot of problems have to be solved. We did not know, that there was a huge hole,** a collision or something could have caused this, that water was found inside this vessel.«

The interviewer: “How was it found out that the bow door (visor) had influenced or even had been the cause of the accident?”

Svensson: “As far as I remember, not at all, but it was simply an alternative, how so much water could have penetrated the car deck so quickly that free surfaces were created very rapidly. The other alternative was, of course, that there was a rather big hole.”

The Navy had a close eye on the wreck from the beginning to avoid uninvited divers from entering the wreck. The Sjöfartsverket is staffed with Navy personnel.

The complete interview is attached as Enclosure 28.

* In this case he referred to water on the car deck.

** It is unknown when Svensson was finally informed about the “huge hole” in the side caused by collision or something. Unfortunately the interviewer did not pick up this subject and did not ask further questions in respect of this hole.

Finally a summary of the Interview No. I/27 of (4) Mats Odell – Communications Minister up to 09.10.94 shall demonstrate what went on in this Ministry during those hectic days.

»He left the farewell party at Rosenbad at about 23.00/23.30 hours and went home, had not slept long when he was woken up at about 02.30 hours by Rolf Tufvesson* on the phone who reported that the ESTONIA had sunk in the Baltic Sea. He went by taxi to the Ministry where he met Rolf Tufvesson and Jan-Olof Selén**. They started to discuss questions of importance to their area of responsibility, rescue services in the hands of the Defence Ministry, with whom Selén was in contact.

At about 05.00 hours he phoned his colleagues in Finland, Olle Norrback*** and in Estonia, Andi Meister, in order to obtain their agreement to form a joint international casualty investigation commission. Norrback was somewhat reluctant at the beginning, Andi Meister agreed at once and decided that he would be the chairman of the Estonian part and suggested to Odell to be the chairman of the Swedish part since they knew each other well, this was of course rejected by Odell because it was actually contrary to the Swedish legal system. Odell was also in contact with Carl Bildt.

Later in the morning there was a meeting at Rosenbad when among other things Carl Bildt set up a “crisis group” and Odell was appointed chairman, apparently many of the crucial questions which came up were within the responsibility area of the Communications Ministry, the reason for this “crisis group” with representatives of all Ministers concerned was the quick and uncomplicated exchange of information and making of decisions and, further, the integration of the new government into the information and decision process as a matter of fact since Monday, October 3, 1994. Ingela Thalén attended all the meetings of the “crisis group” on behalf of the new government , later also the designated Minister of Justice, Laila Freivalds, attended.

The “crisis group” met daily in a particular room at Rosenbad and dealt with factual questions in accordance with an agenda drawn up by Per Egon Johansson** **according to the demands of the various Ministries. Göran Sellwall** ** *wrote the protocol. There was hardly time for some sleep during the first days.

Sjöfartsverket was instructed to find out the legal and technical provisions to take up the bodies, but it was clear that this was no decision to be made by the old government.

He and others from his Ministry had informal contacts with employees of Sjöfartsverket. He does not remember whether Sjöfartsverket was represented at the meetings of the “crisis group”.

The owners made “remarkable” comment directly after the casualty.

During the first week after the casualty the matter was handed over to the new government. Per Egon Johansson (State Secretary) had prepared an ‘Estonia’ file which was handed over to Ines Uusman** ** **and Odell offered to assist even after the take-over but was never contacted again. He was not sure whether Uusman and her staff understood the enormous explosive power lying in the unsolved questions. Statens Havarie Kommission was working under the Communications Ministry. Olof Forssberg attended the ‘crisis group’ meeting on October 3, 1994 and reported on the behaviour of Andi Meister at the first JAIC meeting, that he had absolutely no idea of how to investigate such a casualty. He wanted to finish the investigations in two weeks and almost “fell off his chair” when Olof Forssberg told him that it would take at least one year. Andi Meister was anyway unsuitable for this job since the state of Estonia was a 50% part-owner of the company owning the ferry ‘Estonia’. Forssberg and Odell had a very open dialogue.«

* Rolf Tufvesson was head of the Planning Department in the Communications Ministry.

** Jan-Olof Selén was a high ranking civil servant in the Communications Ministry responsible among other things for Sjöfartsverket and Statens Havarie Kommission – subsequently the Swedish JAIC.

*** Olle Norrback was the Transport Minister of Finland and Andi Meister of Estonia.

** ** Per Egon Johansson was State Secretary at the Communications Ministry.

** ** * Göran Sellwall was a civil servant in the Prime Ministers’ Office.

** ** ** Ines Uusman was the new Communications Minister.

End of summary.

The complete statement of Mats Odell (in Swedish) is available.

Neither Odell nor Johansson nor Selén mention the open dispute between their Ministry and the Seasafety Director Bengt-Erik Stenmark concerning the question of the visor locking devices of the many car/passenger ferries in the Baltic which was triggered off by Bildt’s very determined intention to have obtain “evidence” that the ESTONIA sank due to faulty design of the locking devices of her bow visor. A task which the JAIC tried to accomplish by means of their Final Report, however, in vain because the true circumstances having led to the sinking of the ESTONIA with the loss of more than 1000 lives have been established and explained by the lecturers at the AgnEf Seminar in May 2000, the Report of the German ‘Group of Experts’ published in May 2000 and this Update of November 2006.

Lähde: https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/ch ... /21-0.html
Sitten tässä vieä tällainen uutiskimara noilta ekoilta päiviltä, jossa ihan selkeästi näkyy, että medialle annettiin JAIC:n Kari Lehtolan puolesta vinks vinks että keulavisiirin syytä kaikki. Lisäksi myös memo JAIC:n ensimmäisestä tapaamisesta, jossa pohdittu näitä oleellisia ongelmia tässä keississä.
On 30 September 1994 the Swedish and Finnish JAIC members met again in Turku and according to a memo attached as Enclosure 37.2.447 they dealt with the following matters:

1. Olof Forssberg: Discussion concerning the distribution of the areas to be investigated between Estonia-Finland-Sweden, the forthcoming operation/ organisation: partly help from Swedish side.
Cargo: Estonia and Sweden, possibly controlled by Sweden
Passenger list: Finland
Rescue services: Finland
The Swedish part of the JAIC will hear the Swedish helicopter crews and rescue services.
Weather: Estonia (however each country will obtain weather information from its own weather office).
2. Fax exchange between Finland/Sweden concerning important matters.
3. Next meeting proposed to be in Helsinki after the wreck has been filmed, thereafter preliminary report.
4. Each country keeps a separate protocol for its own file.
5. Estonia's concern about NATO/Russia's interference with the wreck.
6. Dealing with media.
7. Keeping record, archive.
8. Swedish JAIC members shall visit N&T the following day. Stowage plan.
9. Swedish JAIC members shall visit 04.10. Karppinen shall attend on behalf Finland.
10. Heimo Iivonen informed about air rescue in Finland. The Swedish part of the JAIC, LFV had informed the Swedish Rescue Services that they had questions as to the rescue services and the control center.
11. Heimo Iivonen has a good contact to Estonia: Kalle Pedak.
12. Börje Stenström points to the importance of hearing the masters' from 'Silja Europa' and 'Mariella' plus the 3rd engineer of the 'Estonia', Margus Treu.
13. Discussion concerning guarding the wreck.
14. Definition of the term "Skylight": Warning for the crew only (no warning for passengers).
15. Pirjo V. informed that the Finnish part of the JAIC had access to the 'Estonia' drawings.
16. Finally: A Helsinki newspaper is reporting that one of the Estonian JAIC members is involved in a weapon affair!

After the meeting the Swedes went home while Kari Lehtola and his team stayed in Hotel "Marina Palace" in Turku.

In the late afternoon the wreck was located by the Finnish survey vessel "SUUNTA" and Kari Lethola advised (only) the Swedish part of the JAIC by fax on the same day:

"The wreck has now been located:
Latitude 59°23'
Longitude 21°42'
The wreck lies with the port side on the bottom. M.S. 'HALLI' with ROVs tries tomorrow at 10.00 hours to begin the work."

The complete fax is attached as Enclosure 24.393.

1 October 1994

DAGENS NYHETER :

"'Estonia' located at 70 m depth.
'Estonia' is apparently resting on her side at 70 m depth. The vessel was already located 2 hours after the survey vessel 'SUUNTA' commenced her search on Friday (1.10). A ROV can be sent down at the earliest on Saturday (2.10). ...
The master of the F.B.N. survey vessel 'SUUNTA' refuses to analyse the sonar pictures of the wreck. ...
The wreck was found pretty close to the casualty area.
As soon as the wreck has been video-filmed, the commission shall meet in Helsinki to analyse the films. According to Kari Lehtola the video films will not be shown to the public until the commission has completed its analysis carefully and quietly.
Lehtola does not make definite statements, however admits that a lot indicates the visor to have been the cause of the casualty. "We have a lot of indications pointing to this but no evidence. This we will only get after the wreck has been filmed on video. ...
The commission has finalized the taking of statements from the survivors. On Friday they concentrated on collecting all thinkable information which might have a relation to the casualty. There is eyewitness evidence drawing the investigators' attention to the bow door. However Lehtola does not exclude completely the possibility that the cargo might have shifted. "The many reports about banging noises from the car deck could indicate that the cargo did move", Lethola replied.
The Swedish and Estonian parts of the commission have gone home and the commission shall first collect everything concrete to work with.
"Now our work aims at filming the wreck. With the help of the video films we hope to be able to analyse and draw conclusions about the casualty", said Olof Forssberg. "Further investigations are required before we take position concerning possible diving." A preliminary report might come within a week after the JAIC has studied the video films .... . "
The central criminal police in Turku have also been busy with trying to get a hold of the 2nd master Avo Piht who had been onboard the vessel. He was at first stated to have been among the survivors, but it is now most likely that also he lost his life. The commission has a special interest in hearing Piht's version of the catastrophe. ..."

In the evening the Finnish part of the JAIC sent by fax sonar pictures of a large object - see Chapter 24 and Enclosure 24.394 - to the Swedish part of the JAIC only. Attached was also the radar plot of the Finnish Navy showing the tracks of 'SILJA EUROPA' as from 00.12 hours, 'MARIELLA' as from 01.16 hours (which is still before the "official" Mayday) 'SILJA EUROPA', 'TURSAS' and even of two unidentified vessels, however, of ESTONIA only at one position, namely the casualty position. - See Subchapter 22.3.

2 October 1994

DAGENS NYHETER:

"Pictures Can Give the Answer.
In Finnish newspapers it was reported on Saturday (01.10.94) that 'Estonia' may have had problems already one hour before finally the alarm was transmitted. The vessel may have deviated from her normal course and may have had problems with manoeuvring as well as with establishing the position and for a full hour deviated from her normal course.
The Finnish JAIC member, Kari Lethola, denied very determinedly that the JAIC should work with such a theory. According to Lehtola there was no "normal" route for the 'Estonia'.
"Vessels do not always move on the direct line between two positions. Good seamanship requires the selection of the most advantageous route", said Lehtola.
"There are no indications that 'Estonia' should have deviated from her course or should have had problems establishing her position already that long time before the catastrophe. The misunderstanding was probably initiated by the vessel having been one hour behind schedule ... ."

"Water Penetrated from the Car Deck.
The JAIC puts big confidence on the failure of the visor that caused the casualty. (The JAIC strongly believes that failure of the visor caused the casualty.)
Water from the car deck penetrated the cabins on deck 1 below ...
This was reported to the JAIC by the watch A.B. Silver Linde.
This new evidence supports the theory that water rushed on to the car deck past the bow visor and past the inner bow ramp.
"We are pretty sure that this is the way it must have happened. Otherwise the development of the accident could not have been that quick", said the observe for Sjöfartsverket, Sten Andersson. ... Linde returned to the bridge, where everything was normal when one of the telephones rang. The mate said, that some unknown person, maybe a passenger, reported that something had happened deep down in the vessel.
Note: A passenger cannot phone the bridge. Silver Linde was sent down at once. Down on the lower decks he met passengers rushing up and heard persons shouting that water had entered into the cabins below the car deck.
Note: Water on 1st deck before the big heel. "It was so congested that Linde could not go deeper, thus he turned round and rushed to the information desk to telephone the bridge."
Note: What about his walkie-talkie? "When he was standing there, however, the 'Estonia' heeled and took a heavy list." ... "At about the same time the watch engineer and the technician Henrik Sillaste were in the engine control room. On a monitor they saw water streaming past the bow ramp."
Note: The bow ramp was still in place though slightly open after the big heel.

According to Sten Andersson they also saw water on the car deck. ... Sten Andersson refused to speculate about what caused the failure of or damage to the visor. The JAIC does not yet have sufficient documentation to draw secure conclusions. It is hoped, however, that the video films from the wreck will allow this.
"We hope that the films shall bring us the final evidence", said Sten Andersson.
Note: On this day the ROVs filmed the wreck officially for the first time. See Subchapter 25.1.
Sten Andersson: "By the end of next week, if everything goes according to plan, the commission shall complete a first preliminary casualty report."
Note: The above information about the initial testimony of Silver Linde must originate from the first questioning by the commission of the three crew members Linde, Treu and Sillaste in Turku on Thursday, 29 September 1994, which was abruptly ended by Andi Meister. Obviously Sten Andersson in his capacity as observer for Sjöfartsverket did already attend this first hearing (as well as all the following ones).


3 October 1994

DAGENS NYHETER:

"New Pictures from the Wreck Point to the Visor.
Everything points to the visor located in front of the bow ramp to the car deck to have been the cause for the casualty. Dr. Jouko Nuorteva, who analysed the sonar pictures taken when 'Estonia' was located, could give them on Sunday a new interpreta-tion. According to Nuorteva the vessel is turned towards East, i.e. not in the course direction as it was believed in the beginning. At the bow there is a large object which was either torn loose or is hanging on the bow. The object could according to Nuorteva be the damaged visor or part of the visor. The video pictures shall deliver the information in case the visor should have sustained such a big damage. The investigators now have access to as many video films as still pictures from 'Estonia'. The pictures were taken in black/white and colour.
"The pictures are of a high quality, so much we can say," said Kari Lehtola.
"At first the JAIC shall come together to analyse the pictures and thereafter we shall decide what can be published", Lehtola said. "After weather improvement we shall try to film as many details as possible. We are going over the vessel 'screw by screw' ", Lehtola advised.
The JAIC decided already yesterday to meet in Turku, today, Monday. ... "
"Estonia is Prepared to Exchange the Chairman of JAIC.
Estonia's President, Lennart Meri, is fully prepared to exchange the Estonian Transport Minister Andi Meister, who is jeopardized by Sweden and Finland in the joint investigation of the 'Estonia' casualty. There must not remain the slightest doubt that Estonia wants complete certainty about the catastrophe."
This was stated by the President in an interview last Sunday in Stockholm ...
The 65 year old President has taken it very personally that there was so much mistrust against the Estonian crew and the Estonian JAIC members expressed recently by several Finnish and Swedish civil servants.
He listened politely to the questions, nodded but did not want to become polemical about them. He said slowly, very slowly and with very much self-control after having pointed to all the flags outside the hotel being put on half-mast:
"There was the best trained personnel one can think of on the 'Estonia'. They did their work exemplarily and did everything to avoid that panic broke out. Captain Arvo Andresson, this experienced sailor, stood all the time on his bridge and never left it. He followed the vessel also into the depth. Everything went so fast."
The last days had added doubts about the Estonian Transport Minister Andi Meister as chairman of the JAIC. Among other things the Swedish sea safety experts questioned his competence.
"In this context I can only say that in case there should be indications of a conflict of interest for any Estonian person, we shall exchange him", Lennart Meri replied.
Confidence
He pointed out spontaneously that he himself had appointed a personal representative (for the JAIC), who, with his 40 years in the sailor profession, stood for competence and experience. He has the President's full confidence and he is member of the JAIC.
Note: He means Uno Laur.
The President explained that two Estonian representatives had already left the JAIC and were replaced. He added that they had wished to leave ... ."
Note: These were Toivo Ninnas, Managing Director of ESCO, and Yrjo Saariinen, Traffic Manager of Estline.
See Subchapter 36.2

Lähde: https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/es ... t/37.2.htm
Tuossa lähdelinkissä tämä uutisten kirjaus jatku vielä koko loppuvuoden 1994 ajan. On ne saksalaiset tarkkoja. Ai että.
damfin
James Bond (Pierce Brosnan)
Viestit: 13831
Liittynyt: Ke Elo 10, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja damfin »

Ai että, en tiennytkään että tuohon aikaan Carl Bildt ja Esko Aho olivat yhtä kuin Onnettomuustutkintakeskus.

Minä olin siinä uskossa että Onnettomuustutkintkeskusta tuohon aikaan edusti Kari Lehtola joka siis totesi näin:
Lehtola does not make definite statements, however admits that a lot indicates the visor to have been the cause of the casualty. "We have a lot of indications pointing to this but no evidence. This we will only get after the wreck has been filmed on video. ...
Eli kaivaisitko nyt tuosta pitkästä lainauksestasi sen kohdan jossa Onnettomuustutkintakeskus heti seuraavana päivänä onnettomuudesta virallisesti tiedottaa että onnettomuus johtui keulavisiirin irtoamisesta, jos tuolta kerta sellainen väite löytyy?

Erikoisen kovasti sinua näyttää harmittavan väitteet että onnettomuus olisi johtunut laivan suunnittelusta ja rakenteesta, maksetaanko sinulle niiden väitteiden kiistämisestä vai mistä tuo vimma kumpuaa?
Avatar
sikakoira
James Bond (Daniel Graig)
Viestit: 25879
Liittynyt: Ke Kesä 07, 2017 8:50 am

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja sikakoira »

Lehtola totesi niin paljon huuhaata julkisuuteen että siinäpä varsinainen neropatti :lol: Johdatti kaikki uteliaatkin paikanpäältä kilometrikaupalla sivuun jotta "tutkinta" sai rauhassa löytää keulavisiirin täysin hämärästä paikasta :lol: Visiirihän oli kaikuluotauksessa näkunyt jo selkeästi hylyn vieressä.
Maailma avautuu aivan toisella tavalla kuin jos yritätte rakentaa kuvaa maailmasta pelkän suomalaisen valtamedian varassa Se kuva on täysin virheellinen ja harhainen tarkoituksellisesti Se on mediapoolin ja hybridikeskuksen hybridisotaa teitä kohti
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

Ainiin, unohdin ihan kokonaan, että eihän tuo maksettu tili damfin edes lue näitä tänne kirjoitettuja juttuja tai lähteitä.

Meille lukutaitoisille Kari Lehtola eli JAIC:n Suomen päädyn pääpamppu on jo visiiriin päin kallellaan 1. päivänä lokakuuta julkaistussa jutussa eli tuohon maailman aikaan haastis on otettu joko 29. tai 30. päivä ja sitten printattu 1.10. päivän lehteen. Eli jos päivällä heitti nyt tämä arvioni siitä, että JAIC "tiesi" onnettomuuden syyn heti kun Carl Bildt sen heille kertoi, niin huh, olinpas väärässä!
1 October 1994

DAGENS NYHETER

Lethola does not make definite statements, however admits that a lot indicates the visor to have been the cause of the casualty. "We have a lot of indications pointing to this but no evidence. This we will only get after the wreck has been filmed on video. ...
Ei muuten ole vieä tähänkään päivään asti todistusaineistoja tästä, mutta tällä silti mennään. Heh. On tämä hassunhauska keissi.
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

damfin kirjoitti: Pe Loka 30, 2020 4:33 pm
Erikoisen kovasti sinua näyttää harmittavan väitteet että onnettomuus olisi johtunut laivan suunnittelusta ja rakenteesta, maksetaanko sinulle niiden väitteiden kiistämisestä vai mistä tuo vimma kumpuaa?
Miksi maksettaisiin. Meyer Werft on todettu oikeudessa asti syyttömäksi mihinkään rakennevirheeseen. Rakennevirheen keksi Carl Bildt suojellakseen asesalakuljetussuhmuroinnin seurauksena tapahtunutta joko tahallista tai vahingossa tehtyä törmäystä sukellusveneen kanssa. Tämä alkaa jo olla pässinlihaa, mutta toki pässinpäille ihan mahdotonta ymmärtää kun on jaksanut koko elämänsä uskoa Onnettomuustutkintakeskuksen paskaan. Ei isot pojat valehtelisi, ei tietenkään.
damfin
James Bond (Pierce Brosnan)
Viestit: 13831
Liittynyt: Ke Elo 10, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja damfin »

^
Juurihan sinä itse valehtelit siitä että Onnettomuustutkintakeskus olisi heti seuraavana päivänä tiedottanut onnettomuuden syyn olevan irronnut keulavisiiri, etkä sitten kuitenkaan pystynyt löytämään faktaa tuollaisesta tiedotuksesta.
Se että arvellaan jotain asiaa ja samalla sanotaan että syytä ei voida vahvistaa ennen tutkimuksia on kuitenkin aivan eri asia kuin se että tiedotettaisiin näin olevan.
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

En valehdellut mitään. Kysyin retorisen kysymyksen, johon tartuit, ja sen jälkeen osoitin sinulle ettei kyseessä ollut JAIC:n tiedotus seuraavana päivänä, vaan ensimmäisen viikon aikana ilmaistiin että asia on todennäköisesti siten kuten Carl Bildt uppoamispäivänä - 14 tuntia uppoamisen jälkeen - alkoi tuuttailla maailmalle tarua keulavisiiristä.

Mutta hyvä yritys. Juuri noin trollit koittavat kääntää keskustelun kahdenkeskiseksi paskan leipomiseksi. Hyvä hyvä. Toivottavasti palkkasi nousee 20 euroon tunnissa vielä jonain päivänä.
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

Samalla kun täällä oman elämänsä onnettomuustutkijat koittaa väittää keulavisiiriä syylliseksi vielä herran vuonna 2020, päästetään Ruotsista tiedoille ilmoitus Henrik Evertssonin nimityksestä suuren journalistipalkinnon saajaehdokkaaksi. Ai että.
Today it was announced that director and journalist Henrik Evertsson has been nominated for the Grand Journalist Award in Sweden, in the category of this year's revelation. This is perhaps the most prestigious journalist award in our neighboring country.

Evertsson is nominated for the documentary series "Estonia - the discovery that changes everything", made by the production company Monster for Discovery.

It is forbidden to dive near Estonia, but Evertsson and his theme defied the ban and have been down with an underwater drone to film the wreck. Thus, they were able to reveal a four meter high hole in the side of the ferry. This hole has not been known before.

Evertsson has since been charged in Sweden for defying the ban, and in the worst case risks imprisonment.

- I am incredibly proud of this documentary, says Evertsson in a press release from Discovery.

He goes on to say that they have tried to tell the story in an objective and as concrete a way as possible, and that the nomination is proof that they have succeeded in this.

Lähde: https://journalisten.no/discovery-henri ... ige/434063
damfin
James Bond (Pierce Brosnan)
Viestit: 13831
Liittynyt: Ke Elo 10, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja damfin »

matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti: Pe Loka 30, 2020 5:47 pm En valehdellut mitään. Kysyin retorisen kysymyksen, johon tartuit, ja sen jälkeen osoitin sinulle ettei kyseessä ollut JAIC:n tiedotus seuraavana päivänä, vaan ensimmäisen viikon aikana ilmaistiin että asia on todennäköisesti siten kuten Carl Bildt uppoamispäivänä - 14 tuntia uppoamisen jälkeen - alkoi tuuttailla maailmalle tarua keulavisiiristä.

Mutta hyvä yritys. Juuri noin trollit koittavat kääntää keskustelun kahdenkeskiseksi paskan leipomiseksi. Hyvä hyvä. Toivottavasti palkkasi nousee 20 euroon tunnissa vielä jonain päivänä.
Kunhan nyt siellä kiertelet ja perut puheitasi, kuitenkin kun kysyin onko sinulla faktaa sen väitteen tueksi että Onnettomuustutkintakeskus olisi niin tiedottanut, väitit sinulla olevan faktaa asiasta...
matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti:Täältä tulee faktaa. Onneksi on saksalaiset pitäneet hyvin kirjaa, että missä on menty ja missäkin vaiheessa.
Jos nyt yhtään olet palstaa aiemmin seurannut ja olisit perillä minun viestihistoriastani ja ketjuista joihin olen kirjoitellut, niin huomaisit varmaan kuinka naurettavia nuo väitteesi siitä että joku minulle maksaisi tästä estonia keskustelusta ovat, ottaen huomioon sen että olen liittynyt palstalle 2011 ja lähetettyjä viestejä taitaa olla päälle neljätuhatta vaikka olen jossain välissä pitänyt pitkiäkin taukoja palstalle kirjoittelusta... niin sinun mielestäsi olen sitten täällä palkattuna kirjoittelijana hämmentämässä tätä estonia-ketjua... ja itse olet kuitenkin selkeästi kirjautunut palstalle ihan pelkästään tätä aihetta varten tuolla manaatti-nikilläsi eli olet pelkkä yhden aiheen nimimerkki, joten sinuna en paljon viitsisi vihjailla minun saavan tästä palkkaa :lol:
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

Jos lukisit etkä vain trollaisi, huomaisit tuosta faktaviestistäni että tosiaankin, keulavisiiriä alettiin syyttää jo uppoamispäivänä ja JAIC peesasi minkä kerkesi. Mutta eihän tämä faktaksi kelpaa, koska sitä ei lue virallisessa totuudessa, joka on ainoa fakta asiasta.

Trollitilithän usein luodaan tiiminvetäjän puolesta ja niitä jaellaan käyttöön myyrille sitä mukaan kun ovi käy. Jos jaksaisin, tekisin jutuistasi pienen analyysin kirjoitustyylistä ja vanhana semiotiikan tuntijana sieltä varmaan löytyisi useammat kädenjäljet tuohon tiliisi.

Itse saavuin kirjoittamaan tänne MS Estonia -aiheesta heti dokumentin nähtyäni, koska huomasin että täällä on aiemmin ollut ketjussa asianmukaista keskustelua aiheesta.

Tapani mukaan myös tarkistin väitteet, ja etpäs muuten itsekään ole tähän ketjuun mitään kirjoitellut ennen dokkarin julkaisua. Touché.
damfin
James Bond (Pierce Brosnan)
Viestit: 13831
Liittynyt: Ke Elo 10, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja damfin »

matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti: Pe Loka 30, 2020 6:37 pm Jos lukisit etkä vain trollaisi, huomaisit tuosta faktaviestistäni että tosiaankin, keulavisiiriä alettiin syyttää jo uppoamispäivänä ja JAIC peesasi minkä kerkesi. Mutta eihän tämä faktaksi kelpaa, koska sitä ei lue virallisessa totuudessa, joka on ainoa fakta asiasta.

Trollitilithän usein luodaan tiiminvetäjän puolesta ja niitä jaellaan käyttöön myyrille sitä mukaan kun ovi käy. Jos jaksaisin, tekisin jutuistasi pienen analyysin kirjoitustyylistä ja vanhana semiotiikan tuntijana sieltä varmaan löytyisi useammat kädenjäljet tuohon tiliisi.

Itse saavuin kirjoittamaan tänne MS Estonia -aiheesta heti dokumentin nähtyäni, koska huomasin että täällä on aiemmin ollut ketjussa asianmukaista keskustelua aiheesta.

Tapani mukaan myös tarkistin väitteet, ja etpäs muuten itsekään ole tähän ketjuun mitään kirjoitellut ennen dokkarin julkaisua. Touché.
Kuvitelmasi vaikuttavat melko harhaisilta, ja mitä tuohon faktaasi tulee, niin annoit ymmärtää että nimenomaan Onnettomuustutkintakeskus olisi välittömästi tiedottanut onnettomuuden syyn olevan keulavisiirin irtoaminen, ja faktasi ei osoita mitään sellaista, siinä sinulle toucheta.
Se että en ole tähän ketjuun aiemmin kirjoittanut ei ole mitään ihmeellistä, minä kommentoin ketjuihin ihan sen mukaan mikä sattuu olemaan ajankohtaista ja herättämään kiinnostukseni, pinttynyt tapani on usein osallistua keskusteleen silloin kun näen jonkun latelevan johonkin jotain älyttömyyksiä jotka ovat helppo ampua alas, aiheesta riippumatta, ja juuri se että aiheilla joihin kommentoin ei ole mitään yhteyttä toisiinsa vaan ovat melko laidasta laitaan tekee naurettavaksi tuon väitteesi että olisin juuri tässä ketjussa kommentoimassa siksi että minulle siitä maksettaisiin.
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

Ymmärrätkö, mitä retorinen kysymys tarkoittaa? Voin kertoa. Retorinen kysymys, kuten tämä alla oleva, on sellainen, johon ei varsinaisesti kaivata vastausta vaan se on tarkoitettu herättämään ajatuksia. Siksi en kirjoittanut sitä erityisen tarkkasanaisesti.
matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti: Pe Loka 30, 2020 3:17 pm Ylipäänsä muuten, jos kuvittelette hetken, että olette Onnettomuustutkintakeskuksessa töissä ja selvitätte poikkeuksellista merionnettomuutta; miten voi olla mahdollista tiedottaa heti seuraavana päivänä, että syy oli keulavisiirin tai yhtään minkään asian? Ammattitutkijat tietää, että ensin tutkitaan, sitten hutkitaan kun päästään vapaalle. Ei toisin päin. Kuka osaa muka sanoa, että keulavisiiri ei irronnut uppoamisen varsinaisen syyn seurauksena? Ainoastaan taho, joka haluaa, että asia tutkitaan perse edellä puuhun -taktiikalla eli ensin kerrotaan syy, sitten todistetaan se syyksi. Ymmärrätte varmasti, että ette itsekään tekisi tutkimusta tällä tavalla.
Enkä tässä edes sanonut, että kuka tiedotti, vaan että tiedotettiin - Carl Bildtin toimesta. Ja Onnettomuustutkintakeskus peesasi minkä kerkesi, vaikka toki ammattitutkijat tuossa vaiheessa olisi sanoneet arvon pääministerille, että top top, nyt me tutkitaan asia kunnolla ja eipä häiritä todistajien kokemusta asiasta heti ensimmäisenä päivänä levittelemällä medialle tässä vaiheessa perättömiä huhuja onnettomuuden syistä. Pitää kuulla kaikkia todistajia ensin, tutkia hylky perinpohjin ja sitten päätellä, mitä on tapahtunut. Tässä ei mennyt todellakaan niin, ja se että täällä koitat vääntää sanojani jotenkin minua vastaan vain osoittaa, miten helvetin heikoilla jäillä olet. Terkkuja pomollesi.

Ja muuten. Jos et saa tästä rahaa, niin olen pahoillani. Varmaan on vaikeaa elää jos ei tuon enempää moottori ajaessa käynnisty.
damfin
James Bond (Pierce Brosnan)
Viestit: 13831
Liittynyt: Ke Elo 10, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja damfin »

matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti: Pe Loka 30, 2020 6:53 pm Ymmärrätkö, mitä retorinen kysymys tarkoittaa? Voin kertoa. Retorinen kysymys, kuten tämä alla oleva, on sellainen, johon ei varsinaisesti kaivata vastausta vaan se on tarkoitettu herättämään ajatuksia. Siksi en kirjoittanut sitä erityisen tarkkasanaisesti.
matalanveenmanaatti kirjoitti: Pe Loka 30, 2020 3:17 pm Ylipäänsä muuten, jos kuvittelette hetken, että olette Onnettomuustutkintakeskuksessa töissä ja selvitätte poikkeuksellista merionnettomuutta; miten voi olla mahdollista tiedottaa heti seuraavana päivänä, että syy oli keulavisiirin tai yhtään minkään asian? Ammattitutkijat tietää, että ensin tutkitaan, sitten hutkitaan kun päästään vapaalle. Ei toisin päin. Kuka osaa muka sanoa, että keulavisiiri ei irronnut uppoamisen varsinaisen syyn seurauksena? Ainoastaan taho, joka haluaa, että asia tutkitaan perse edellä puuhun -taktiikalla eli ensin kerrotaan syy, sitten todistetaan se syyksi. Ymmärrätte varmasti, että ette itsekään tekisi tutkimusta tällä tavalla.
Enkä tässä edes sanonut, että kuka tiedotti, vaan että tiedotettiin - Carl Bildtin toimesta. Ja Onnettomuustutkintakeskus peesasi minkä kerkesi, vaikka toki ammattitutkijat tuossa vaiheessa olisi sanoneet arvon pääministerille, että top top, nyt me tutkitaan asia kunnolla ja eipä häiritä todistajien kokemusta asiasta heti ensimmäisenä päivänä levittelemällä medialle tässä vaiheessa perättömiä huhuja onnettomuuden syistä. Pitää kuulla kaikkia todistajia ensin, tutkia hylky perinpohjin ja sitten päätellä, mitä on tapahtunut. Tässä ei mennyt todellakaan niin, ja se että täällä koitat vääntää sanojani jotenkin minua vastaan vain osoittaa, miten helvetin heikoilla jäillä olet. Terkkuja pomollesi.

Ja muuten. Jos et saa tästä rahaa, niin olen pahoillani. Varmaan on vaikeaa elää jos ei tuon enempää moottori ajaessa käynnisty.
Kyllä minä retorisen kysymyksesi ymmärsin varsin hyvin, varmasti moni muukin tuosta retorisesta kysymyksestä ymmärsi että halusit antaa ymmärtää että Onnettomuustutkintakeskus olisi tiedottanut asiasta heti seuraavana päivänä, ethän sinä tuossa mitään muita tahoja mainitse kuin Onnettomuustutkintakeskuksen oikein isolla kirjoitettuna, sentään itsekin myönsit kyseessä olevan retorinen kysymys eikä kirjoitusvirhe, eli esitit asian niin että annat ymmärtää sen olevan noin vaikka et sitä suoraan sanokaan :lol:

Niin minä en todellakaan saa tästä rahaa, tienaan rahani yrittäjänä ihan muusta kuin nettiin kirjoittamisesta, siksi minulla ei ole aikaa käyttää tähän 24/7 vaikka kieltämättä hieman liikaa vapaa-ajasta tähän tuppaa joskus kulumaan, ja yrittäjänä omana pomonani tulee joskus otettua vapauksia kirjoitella silloinkin kun pitäisi tehdä oikeita töitä... no toivottavasti sinä nyt kuitenkin saat tästä palkkaa, koska muuhun työhönhän sinulta ei aikaa voi riittää, kun olet joko täällä teorioitasi kirjoittamassa, tai sitten waybackmachinesta vanhoja raportteja läpi kahlaamassa, ja ehkä silloin tällöin jopa hetken saatat nukkuakin.
matalanveenmanaatti
Remington Steele
Viestit: 211
Liittynyt: To Loka 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Re: Estonia

Viesti Kirjoittaja matalanveenmanaatti »

Jos muuten aikaa on noinkin paljon, niin sitä kannattaisi käyttää sen Ruotsin suurimman journalistipalkinnon ehdokkuuden voittaneen dokumenttisarjan katsomiseen ja sitten toki tuon Meyer Werftin raportin lukemiseen. Sitä kun helposti luulee trolliksi sellaisia, jotka osallistuvat keskusteluun tuntematta keskustelun lähteitä, etenkin tässä tapauksessa tuota dokumenttisarjaa.

Itse olen infosotainvalidi ja siksi aikaa löytyy, ja toki myös tahtoa takoa kun rauta on kuumaa. Häpeällistä tämä suhmurointi nimittäin ja Itämeren turvallisuudelle tämä koko homma on äärimmäisen haitallinen tällaisenaan. Voidaan vaan kuvitella miten tällä asialla ja siihen liittyvillä muilla asioilla, joista meillä ei ole vielä hajuakaan, on puolin ja toisin on kiristetty. Ketkä siitä nyt on sitten tienneet ja mitäkin.

Itse aina pelkään tuota Venäjää kaikessa jo ihan omien sotatraumojeni puolesta, mutta miettikää nyt. Jos venäläiset on tienneet mitä tässä on tapahtunut, niin mitä kaikkea ne on voineet painostaa Ruotsia, Suomea ja Viroa tekemään kuluneen 26 vuoden aikana? Tai jättämään tekemättä. Itselleni tulee mieleen heti monen monta tilannetta, jossa ollaan tarpeettomasti katsottu Venäjän hommia läpi sormien. Suomettumisellahan se on helppo selittää toki, mutta se on meille mielestäni homeinen defenssi monesti.

Jo itsessään tuo tuhannen siviilin hengen riskeeraaminen on hurjaa puuhaa ja sitä ennen tehdyillä salakuljetusreissuilla MS Estonialla on riskeerattu varmaan kymmeniä tuhansia siviilejä lisää. Kyllä siinä olisi ollut ihan tarpeeksi sisäpoliittista stressiä Ruotsille. Ja jos Suomi on ollut siinä mukana, edes hyötyjän roolissa, niin kyllä siitä täälläkin olisi päänahkoja vaadittu moneen otteeseen. Ihan uskottavaa, että jokainen hallitus tämän tilanteen syystä tai toisesta kohdattuaan on päättänyt, että joo, ei mennä tähän vielä. Sitten 70 vuoden päästä, tai jotain, koska ne Ruotsin salakuljetushommien asiakirjat tuleekaan nähtäväksi. Joskus 2060-luvulla muistaakseni.
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